5 ms·

There are many things in society - scratch that, nearly everything in society - that I both dislike for one reason or another, but also accept they will never c

by nverno 5y ago

There are many things in society - scratch that, nearly everything in society - that I both dislike for one reason or another, but also accept they will never change. Still, it is nice to hear other people express similar opinions. Imagine where we would be if there was never any pushback against bad ideas.

dimitrios1 5y ago
The bulk of pushback against bad ideas, especially sinister ones that come with societal blowback, occurs in the form of ignoring them. It's whats happening right now with CRT. You can't speak out against it, without risking reputation or livelihood so you hope to just ignore it until it goes away.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  > It's whats happening right now with CRT. You can't speak out against it, without risking reputation or livelihood so you hope to just ignore it until it goes away. I find this absurd as someone who had an interest in critical theory (including CRT) about 7 years ago. Nobody had even heard of CRT until like 3 years ago and what people call "CRT" isn't even an actual category. It is certainly not being taught in highschools. It's a boogeyman produced by conservative media. I actually am not a fan of many subbranches (ie. afro-pessimism is BS, IMO) and would have no fear about stating that publicly. All that speaking out against "CRT" as a general phenomenon demonstrates to me is that you spend a lot of time reading the conservative media bubble.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    Yeah, my favorite bit is the whole freakout about teaching CRT in K-12 education. (If anyone was proposing that, it might be worth freaking out over, but not for the reasons being cited, but more for the same reasons you’d freak out over proposing Quantum Chemistry as a high school graduation requirement. Except moreso, because QChem is at least reasonably common in undergraduate curricula.)
    - nverno 5y ago
      Hey, I've heard there are people out there who think math is racist, so I'm sure someone out there has proposed teaching advanced racist spotting to children.
      - whimsicalism 5y ago
        Uh oh, the dreaded people out there! Clearly this must become a major part of our political discourse at once.
        username90 5y ago
        When you choose to side with lunatics and don't try to stop them from being associated with you then you shouldn't be surprised when people judge you for it. This goes for both sides of course, so no need to throw it back at me as I'm not defending the right at all here I'm just attacking the left for associating with lunatics. I really hate how there can't just be a party of sensible people in USA, guess that is what you get with a two party system...
        whimsicalism 5y ago
        You found some people who say that math is racist, and it is now on everyone on the left side of the spectrum to disavow them? This seems absurd. I never sided with the math is racist people. I encourage you to think rationally about these things, and prioritize facts above feeling like X&X might be associated with Y&Y who has bad idea Z&Z. Look at what people actually support.
        username90 5y ago
        Well, there are many flavours of lunatics on the left, the "math is racist" people is just one flavour of it, and they are still supported by a significant subgroup of the Democrats. So in the end you support that side by voting for the Democrats. Of course in your opinion it is more important to stop all the lunatics on the right. But to a right wing voter he will look at all the flavours of lunatics supported by the Democrats and use that as a reason why he has to vote right. I'd argue that both parties absorbing their sides lunatics in USA is the by far biggest problem with politics over there. Where I live the lunatics made their own parties so you don't have to vote for them, but in a two party system that can't happen so the lunatics will almost surely get absorbed by the big parties.
  - apostacy 5y ago
    > Nobody had even heard of CRT until like 3 years ago and what people call "CRT" isn't even an actual category. It is certainly not being taught in highschools. This to me sounds like someone dismissing the harms caused by a Church by saying that it isn't technically part of scriptural canon, and that if we could only adopt True and correct orthodoxy, these abuses would not happen. The problem is that kids are being taught to not be friends with each other because of what they look like.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > The problem is that kids are being taught to not be friends with each other because of what they look like. That's always been true, and CRT has nothing to do with it.
      - apostacy 5y ago
        > That's always been true, and CRT has nothing to do with it. I have seen it happen to preteens first hand. Children that a year ago were comfortable hanging out, are no longer so. CRT encourages kids to engage in paint-swatch racialism. It is heartbreaking to see first hand children who used to just be able to play together, worry about whether they should include or exclude other kids because of what they look like. Teaching children to pre-judge people because of where their pigmentation is on a paint swatch is grotesque and it is child abuse. If your ideology leads you to hurt children, then your ideology must be wrong. So, pre-judging people is wrong because it erases their identity by making unfounded and unfair presumptions about who they are because of arbitrary physical characteristics that they can not control. Racial pre-judgement is a dangerous bronze-age heuristic that society should try to be moving past, but CRT encourages it. Implanting racial self hatred (and racial pride) is a pernicious and dangerous thing to do, and if you can't see that I don't have time to educate you. Reducing human beings down to being "black and brown bodies" is disgusting. The correct response to that kind of dehumanization can only be disgust. And again, people in positions of authority imposing that in CHILDREN. At least adults have more agency to push back. I don't care if that isn't "real" CRT. It doesn't matter if what I am talking about isn't textually correct. If the CRT you are talking about only exists in the minds of obscure scholars and texts, then it is just a fantasy, and doesn't really exist. The only real CRT is what is actually being implemented in classrooms across the country.
enskfn 5y ago
I do not appreciate or even care for social media callouts, but personally I thought it was “nice to hear” a politician apologize for shamelessly defending Israeli apartheid for once. I sympathize with Americans who are unfamiliar with foreign politics, so I am not saying this to fight or shame anybody, but this was not just a twitter event. It was more a result of the study released by Human Rights Watch days earlier than it was a result of social media shaming. This event held important historical significance far beyond Twitter.

by nverno 5y ago

dimitrios1 5y ago

The bulk of pushback against bad ideas, especially sinister ones that come with societal blowback, occurs in the form of ignoring them. It's whats happening right now with CRT. You can't speak out against it, without risking reputation or livelihood so you hope to just ignore it until it goes away.

whimsicalism 5y ago
> It's whats happening right now with CRT. You can't speak out against it, without risking reputation or livelihood so you hope to just ignore it until it goes away. I find this absurd as someone who had an interest in critical theory (including CRT) about 7 years ago. Nobody had even heard of CRT until like 3 years ago and what people call "CRT" isn't even an actual category. It is certainly not being taught in highschools. It's a boogeyman produced by conservative media. I actually am not a fan of many subbranches (ie. afro-pessimism is BS, IMO) and would have no fear about stating that publicly. All that speaking out against "CRT" as a general phenomenon demonstrates to me is that you spend a lot of time reading the conservative media bubble.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  Yeah, my favorite bit is the whole freakout about teaching CRT in K-12 education. (If anyone was proposing that, it might be worth freaking out over, but not for the reasons being cited, but more for the same reasons you’d freak out over proposing Quantum Chemistry as a high school graduation requirement. Except moreso, because QChem is at least reasonably common in undergraduate curricula.)
  - nverno 5y ago
    Hey, I've heard there are people out there who think math is racist, so I'm sure someone out there has proposed teaching advanced racist spotting to children.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      Uh oh, the dreaded people out there! Clearly this must become a major part of our political discourse at once.
      - username90 5y ago
        When you choose to side with lunatics and don't try to stop them from being associated with you then you shouldn't be surprised when people judge you for it. This goes for both sides of course, so no need to throw it back at me as I'm not defending the right at all here I'm just attacking the left for associating with lunatics. I really hate how there can't just be a party of sensible people in USA, guess that is what you get with a two party system...
        whimsicalism 5y ago
        You found some people who say that math is racist, and it is now on everyone on the left side of the spectrum to disavow them? This seems absurd. I never sided with the math is racist people. I encourage you to think rationally about these things, and prioritize facts above feeling like X&X might be associated with Y&Y who has bad idea Z&Z. Look at what people actually support.
        username90 5y ago
        Well, there are many flavours of lunatics on the left, the "math is racist" people is just one flavour of it, and they are still supported by a significant subgroup of the Democrats. So in the end you support that side by voting for the Democrats. Of course in your opinion it is more important to stop all the lunatics on the right. But to a right wing voter he will look at all the flavours of lunatics supported by the Democrats and use that as a reason why he has to vote right. I'd argue that both parties absorbing their sides lunatics in USA is the by far biggest problem with politics over there. Where I live the lunatics made their own parties so you don't have to vote for them, but in a two party system that can't happen so the lunatics will almost surely get absorbed by the big parties.
- apostacy 5y ago
  > Nobody had even heard of CRT until like 3 years ago and what people call "CRT" isn't even an actual category. It is certainly not being taught in highschools. This to me sounds like someone dismissing the harms caused by a Church by saying that it isn't technically part of scriptural canon, and that if we could only adopt True and correct orthodoxy, these abuses would not happen. The problem is that kids are being taught to not be friends with each other because of what they look like.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > The problem is that kids are being taught to not be friends with each other because of what they look like. That's always been true, and CRT has nothing to do with it.
    - apostacy 5y ago
      > That's always been true, and CRT has nothing to do with it. I have seen it happen to preteens first hand. Children that a year ago were comfortable hanging out, are no longer so. CRT encourages kids to engage in paint-swatch racialism. It is heartbreaking to see first hand children who used to just be able to play together, worry about whether they should include or exclude other kids because of what they look like. Teaching children to pre-judge people because of where their pigmentation is on a paint swatch is grotesque and it is child abuse. If your ideology leads you to hurt children, then your ideology must be wrong. So, pre-judging people is wrong because it erases their identity by making unfounded and unfair presumptions about who they are because of arbitrary physical characteristics that they can not control. Racial pre-judgement is a dangerous bronze-age heuristic that society should try to be moving past, but CRT encourages it. Implanting racial self hatred (and racial pride) is a pernicious and dangerous thing to do, and if you can't see that I don't have time to educate you. Reducing human beings down to being "black and brown bodies" is disgusting. The correct response to that kind of dehumanization can only be disgust. And again, people in positions of authority imposing that in CHILDREN. At least adults have more agency to push back. I don't care if that isn't "real" CRT. It doesn't matter if what I am talking about isn't textually correct. If the CRT you are talking about only exists in the minds of obscure scholars and texts, then it is just a fantasy, and doesn't really exist. The only real CRT is what is actually being implemented in classrooms across the country.

enskfn 5y ago

I do not appreciate or even care for social media callouts, but personally I thought it was “nice to hear” a politician apologize for shamelessly defending Israeli apartheid for once. I sympathize with Americans who are unfamiliar with foreign politics, so I am not saying this to fight or shame anybody, but this was not just a twitter event. It was more a result of the study released by Human Rights Watch days earlier than it was a result of social media shaming. This event held important historical significance far beyond Twitter.