5 ms·

I recently gave a test lecture about a topic in statistics, where I showed a meme that a statistics professor I follow shared on her Twitter feed [1]. I thought

I recently gave a test lecture about a topic in statistics, where I showed a meme that a statistics professor I follow shared on her Twitter feed [1]. I thought it would be safe to include as it didn't get any negative reactions on Twitter and was already being used by a professor in her university class in the US. After the talk I immediately got called out by the women's representative on the hiring commission, who asked me how I would think students would react to such a meme. I then explained how it makes fun of the statistical property of the mean being easily "attracted" by outlier data points, as opposed to the median which is usually not as sensitive. She did not explain what she saw as problematic. Maybe that a couple in a relationship situation was shown or that an attractive woman was in the foreground, or that the man openly expressed his attraction towards the other woman. I apologized profusley and tried to explain that I'm not an insensitive or sexist person, which she seemed to imply with her remark though. I have been thinking about this incident for several days now, as I really can't make up my mind if I did something wrong or not by including the meme. If anyone want to add his/her opinion I'd be grateful therefore. The lecture was directed at B.Sc. students at a university in Europe BTW. Personally I can say it feels quite bad being called out like that, especially as someone who has never (consciously) done anything discriminatory against women or minorities. And as someone who's quite sensitive I can say that it definitely has a chilling effect on me. [1] https://twitter.com/annaegalite/status/1166446645204213760 https://twitter.com/annaegalite/status/1166446645204213760

volkk 5y ago
based on the fact that you're even writing about it and really reflecting so deeply makes me think that you're probably NOT that kind of person. and that is why all of this crap is so dangerous. actual decent people are collateral damage and anyone is up for dismantling. my question to those who read this comment is: given all that has happened regarding canceling disgusting people (i.e weinstein) and potentially more controversial ones that maybe didn't deserve it (e.g aziz ansari) is it a net negative or a positive for society?
msie 5y ago
Using memes in a lecture is risky, but was the women's representative herself outraged or outraged on behalf of the students?
- deleted 5y ago
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lookdangerous 5y ago
I would recommend not saying sorry as a default, unless you are sure there is something you are sorry for. Maybe sorry that you mistakenly upset her. But be careful about apologizing for something when you didn't do anything wrong.
Traster 5y ago
Seems fine to me, but without actually having someone's objection explained it's difficult to say. The problem with these situations is that actually I've definitely witnessed situations in the past where I've seen something problematic/racist and even after explaining to the person what's wrong they still come out saying "I still don't see the problem". I'm not saying you're in the wrong in this particularly case- just mentioning that that's also a thing.
jmull 5y ago
It wouldn’t bother me personally, but it’a a little crude and objectifying. Whether it’s funny or offensive depends on the audience. I think you got a clear signal that at least someone found it offensive, which means others probably did as well, so I’d recalibrate my behavior based on that feedback. Also, keep in mind that context is important. That meme may come off very differently coming from a popular, well-established female professor who is passing along a student creation after class than dropped into a formal lecture, especially if they don’t know you well yet.
tester756 5y ago
on one hand I can see why would somebody think it's not the nicest thing to show but on the other hand - holy **, you better get thick skin quick enough, because life's gonna be way harsher than this.
Delk 5y ago
I think that's one of those things where "wrong" becomes rather subjective. If you've been strongly sensitized to feelings of actual or potential distress due to unwanted sexual attraction, or the sexualization of the (in this case) female body, or whatever the problem might have been, it's probably seen as wrong or at least problematic. The sensitization might have happened due to personal experiences, or due to hearing a lot about such experiences from other people, or, well... *looks around on the Internet*. If you haven't been strongly sensitized that way, there probably isn't anything particularly wrong with that. Most people would probably have some kind of a middle ground perspective where e.g. physical attraction, and its expression (and humour about it) is part of normal human experience. The same people might see it as lewd or inappropriate in other contexts, or if expressed in other ways, or when it's too much. It might sometimes feel uncomfortable, and the extent to which people tolerate (and want to tolerate) that varies, as does the line where people begin to deem it "not right". Which part of the spectrum is right or wrong is not an objective question. Right now lots of people (at least in social media) seem to be rather preoccupied with the former, perhaps because legitimate problems have often been overlooked. Some people who are in the former end of the spectrum are being rather aggressive. The anger is often understandable, although that doesn't mean they're objectively right or that you're wrong if you don't follow the same line. With that said, people who were already sensitive about not causing ill feelings were probably not the actual problem in the first place. This is just my random view, of course.
meinfuhrer 5y ago
I remember posting this exact meme in an article on my blog and then cross-posted to a different site. Was asked to remove it from the site due to "how it objectifies women and perpetuates shallow stereotypes". I didn't give a fuck, but I removed it because they make their rules. Of course, I left it on my blog.
overgard 5y ago
I don't think you should have apologized. She was clearly being unreasonable. In a situation like that it's fair to ask what in particular was a problem. If they can't give a reasonable response you should ignore them.
deleted 5y ago
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sudosteph 5y ago
The professor who tweeted that is from my own Alma Mater, which to be fair, is not exactly a bastion of cultural "wokeness" compared to other schools. That's a good thing in my book, but things that fly at NC State may not fly at UC Berkeley or even UNC. I have no idea how European sensitivities compare either, though I had thought that you all were less sensitive than most. Still, I'm a woman and I see absolutely nothing wrong with using that meme in that context. The teacher who shared that meme, who is also a woman, also saw nothing wrong. The student who created the meme, who is also a woman, also saw nothing wrong. It's an amusing and memorable way to teach a concept, which is great. I wonder if the "women's representative" on the hiring committee just felt like she had to find something to say to justify her presence there. Did you give a source citation on that meme? It's not guaranteed, but I do wonder if you would have been left alone if it had been readily apparent that this meme was created and shared by women scholars.
TMWNN 5y ago
>I have been thinking about this incident for several days now, as I really can't make up my mind if I did something wrong or not by including the meme. If anyone want to add his/her opinion I'd be grateful therefore. As others have said, you did absolutely nothing wrong. Feel free to point the hiring commission to The New York Times (<https://twitter.com/AlecMacGillis/status/1133724550871560192 https://twitter.com/AlecMacGillis/status/1133724550871560192>).

volkk 5y ago

based on the fact that you're even writing about it and really reflecting so deeply makes me think that you're probably NOT that kind of person. and that is why all of this crap is so dangerous. actual decent people are collateral damage and anyone is up for dismantling. my question to those who read this comment is: given all that has happened regarding canceling disgusting people (i.e weinstein) and potentially more controversial ones that maybe didn't deserve it (e.g aziz ansari) is it a net negative or a positive for society?

msie 5y ago

Using memes in a lecture is risky, but was the women's representative herself outraged or outraged on behalf of the students?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

lookdangerous 5y ago

I would recommend not saying sorry as a default, unless you are sure there is something you are sorry for. Maybe sorry that you mistakenly upset her. But be careful about apologizing for something when you didn't do anything wrong.

Traster 5y ago

Seems fine to me, but without actually having someone's objection explained it's difficult to say. The problem with these situations is that actually I've definitely witnessed situations in the past where I've seen something problematic/racist and even after explaining to the person what's wrong they still come out saying "I still don't see the problem". I'm not saying you're in the wrong in this particularly case- just mentioning that that's also a thing.

jmull 5y ago

It wouldn’t bother me personally, but it’a a little crude and objectifying. Whether it’s funny or offensive depends on the audience. I think you got a clear signal that at least someone found it offensive, which means others probably did as well, so I’d recalibrate my behavior based on that feedback. Also, keep in mind that context is important. That meme may come off very differently coming from a popular, well-established female professor who is passing along a student creation after class than dropped into a formal lecture, especially if they don’t know you well yet.

tester756 5y ago

on one hand I can see why would somebody think it's not the nicest thing to show but on the other hand - holy **, you better get thick skin quick enough, because life's gonna be way harsher than this.

Delk 5y ago

I think that's one of those things where "wrong" becomes rather subjective. If you've been strongly sensitized to feelings of actual or potential distress due to unwanted sexual attraction, or the sexualization of the (in this case) female body, or whatever the problem might have been, it's probably seen as wrong or at least problematic. The sensitization might have happened due to personal experiences, or due to hearing a lot about such experiences from other people, or, well... *looks around on the Internet*. If you haven't been strongly sensitized that way, there probably isn't anything particularly wrong with that. Most people would probably have some kind of a middle ground perspective where e.g. physical attraction, and its expression (and humour about it) is part of normal human experience. The same people might see it as lewd or inappropriate in other contexts, or if expressed in other ways, or when it's too much. It might sometimes feel uncomfortable, and the extent to which people tolerate (and want to tolerate) that varies, as does the line where people begin to deem it "not right". Which part of the spectrum is right or wrong is not an objective question. Right now lots of people (at least in social media) seem to be rather preoccupied with the former, perhaps because legitimate problems have often been overlooked. Some people who are in the former end of the spectrum are being rather aggressive. The anger is often understandable, although that doesn't mean they're objectively right or that you're wrong if you don't follow the same line. With that said, people who were already sensitive about not causing ill feelings were probably not the actual problem in the first place. This is just my random view, of course.

meinfuhrer 5y ago

I remember posting this exact meme in an article on my blog and then cross-posted to a different site. Was asked to remove it from the site due to "how it objectifies women and perpetuates shallow stereotypes". I didn't give a fuck, but I removed it because they make their rules. Of course, I left it on my blog.

overgard 5y ago

I don't think you should have apologized. She was clearly being unreasonable. In a situation like that it's fair to ask what in particular was a problem. If they can't give a reasonable response you should ignore them.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

sudosteph 5y ago

The professor who tweeted that is from my own Alma Mater, which to be fair, is not exactly a bastion of cultural "wokeness" compared to other schools. That's a good thing in my book, but things that fly at NC State may not fly at UC Berkeley or even UNC. I have no idea how European sensitivities compare either, though I had thought that you all were less sensitive than most. Still, I'm a woman and I see absolutely nothing wrong with using that meme in that context. The teacher who shared that meme, who is also a woman, also saw nothing wrong. The student who created the meme, who is also a woman, also saw nothing wrong. It's an amusing and memorable way to teach a concept, which is great. I wonder if the "women's representative" on the hiring committee just felt like she had to find something to say to justify her presence there. Did you give a source citation on that meme? It's not guaranteed, but I do wonder if you would have been left alone if it had been readily apparent that this meme was created and shared by women scholars.

TMWNN 5y ago

>I have been thinking about this incident for several days now, as I really can't make up my mind if I did something wrong or not by including the meme. If anyone want to add his/her opinion I'd be grateful therefore. As others have said, you did absolutely nothing wrong. Feel free to point the hiring commission to The New York Times (<https://twitter.com/AlecMacGillis/status/1133724550871560192 https://twitter.com/AlecMacGillis/status/1133724550871560192>).