5 ms·

What would you suggest you do when you have been behaving incorrectly? You can’t change the past.

qbasic_forever 5y ago
That's an odd strawman. I... wouldn't behave incorrectly in the first place. It's not a difficult concept to understand for most people I hope, especially with sexual harassment.
- jrochkind1 5y ago
  Everyone makes mistakes, behaves incorrectly, and causes harm though. Everyone has. You, me too.
  - qbasic_forever 5y ago
    I don't follow your logic. So like, because I ran through a red light once we should forgive all sexual predators?
    - jrochkind1 5y ago
      No. Because we all behave incorrectly and cause harm -- most of us at some points in our life, serious, grave, harm even -- we should not cast out anyone who has from society and say "well, if you don't want to be cast out from society don't behave incorrectly." Because we all would be. (Someone that runs a red light can run over a pedestrian, and sometimes do, it's not thing separate from causing grave harm...) This isn't talking about "forgiving" at all, in fact. i think the only person who can "forgive" someone who has done harm is the person they have done harm to, that's not even in the capacity of anyone else to do, is it? This is, by the way, very related to "abolish prisons/policing" stuff. When someone has done grave harm, and the recommended response is to try to keep anyone else from employing, doing business with, or even socializing with them -- what is the goal, what do you expect to accomplish? Preventing them from doing further harm? Repairing the harm done to those who had harm done to them? Making it less likely others will do harm? Just pure vengeance? Which of these are accomplished, how well, by this technique? What kind of community or society is creating, knowing that we will all do harm and all have harm done to us?
- EvilEy3 5y ago
  >> I... wouldn't behave incorrectly in the first place. It's not a difficult concept to understand for most people I hope, especially with sexual harassment. > I wouldn't be poor in the first place! > I wouldn't be sick in the first place! > I wouldn't be in their shoes in the first place! What an argument.
  - qbasic_forever 5y ago
    What do those issues have to do with someone who chooses to be a sexual predator?
  - only_as_i_fall 5y ago
    Do you not see how one of those things is a choice and the other 3 aren't?
- overgard 5y ago
  I'm glad we've found the first person in life who has never made a mistake! What a shining example you are.
  - qbasic_forever 5y ago
    I have never been a sexual predator and will commit to never being one in the future. This is something I would wager the vast, vast majority of the public can commit to too. This is not something weird or out of the ordinary.
    - Talanes 5y ago
      Or you just haven't realized which actions you've taken are predatory yet.
      - Jetrel 5y ago
        This is really the chief danger here - it's the ability to retroactively label anything as predatory. You don't actually have to be guilty; in fact, what's perhaps the most dangerous aspect is that you don't have to have even been a party to the matter, innocent or not. Someone who just plain doesn't like you can levy an accusation, and even if you've literally never interacted with them in your life, you're guilty. I've seen it happen firsthand. To quote Cardinal Richelieu, "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him." This behavior really has nothing to do with the nature of the crime at hand; it's been used to discriminate against people by race, by gender, by interest, by religion - by just about anything. Giving human beings the ability to arbitrarily punish other humans, without recourse, is obscenely dangerous.
    - moistbar 5y ago
      Someone, somewhere, thinks something you did is reprehensible.
- nsxwolf 5y ago
  I hear this said a lot today by people I grew up with. No dude, I was there. I remember how much you loved to tell racist jokes. Not one example, dozens.
  - qbasic_forever 5y ago
    What does that anecdote have to do with me living my life and continuing to live my life without being a sexual predator?
    - moate 5y ago
      The point is: In a society in which we have violent factions opposing one another on an single basic idea, what sins are truly and permanently unforgivable by a society? We would all seem to agreed that a legal framework is more valuable than vigilante justice, but people on all sides admit the courts don't work all the time. What is the right choice? And can offenders reform? For example, I'm of the (extremely unpopular) opinion that we're too hard on sex criminals. The framework the US has put together doesn't just not help reformation, but in many ways encourages recidivism by limiting employment and housing options. But what's the right choice? Am I right because I'm backed by dozens of studies by social scientists? Or is the local parent mob right to "protect their children" by keeping laws on the books that keep sex offenders in the fringes of community? If a child molester gets off on a technicality, is the victim's father who murders him a hero or a villain? What about other crimes? In China you can go to jail for 10 days without prosecution for possessing pot. Here in NJ I can smoke a blunt on my front lawn as a police parade goes by and I'm fine. Who is right? IDK, I'm just rambling at this point. This whole debate is so stupid and circular and hypocritical and fluid on all sides.
- moistbar 5y ago
  So, to you, there's no possibility for a person to redeem themselves regardless of the nature of their transgression?
- jandrese 5y ago
  Some people had the norms change out from under them. In the past the societal norm was that Women were supposed to be shy and demure and pretend to be uninterested in sex. The men were supposed to take charge and "conquer". Nowadays we know this is dumb and causes tons of unwanted harassment. People changed and made the world a better place, which was great. Then we went back and started prosecuting people for doing what they were told they were supposed to be doing at the time. This is why we have grandfather clauses in the law. The difference between Sexual Harassment and Flirting is if the other person is into it.

That's an odd strawman. I... wouldn't behave incorrectly in the first place. It's not a difficult concept to understand for most people I hope, especially with sexual harassment.

jrochkind1 5y ago
Everyone makes mistakes, behaves incorrectly, and causes harm though. Everyone has. You, me too.
- qbasic_forever 5y ago
  I don't follow your logic. So like, because I ran through a red light once we should forgive all sexual predators?
  - jrochkind1 5y ago
    No. Because we all behave incorrectly and cause harm -- most of us at some points in our life, serious, grave, harm even -- we should not cast out anyone who has from society and say "well, if you don't want to be cast out from society don't behave incorrectly." Because we all would be. (Someone that runs a red light can run over a pedestrian, and sometimes do, it's not thing separate from causing grave harm...) This isn't talking about "forgiving" at all, in fact. i think the only person who can "forgive" someone who has done harm is the person they have done harm to, that's not even in the capacity of anyone else to do, is it? This is, by the way, very related to "abolish prisons/policing" stuff. When someone has done grave harm, and the recommended response is to try to keep anyone else from employing, doing business with, or even socializing with them -- what is the goal, what do you expect to accomplish? Preventing them from doing further harm? Repairing the harm done to those who had harm done to them? Making it less likely others will do harm? Just pure vengeance? Which of these are accomplished, how well, by this technique? What kind of community or society is creating, knowing that we will all do harm and all have harm done to us?
EvilEy3 5y ago
>> I... wouldn't behave incorrectly in the first place. It's not a difficult concept to understand for most people I hope, especially with sexual harassment. > I wouldn't be poor in the first place! > I wouldn't be sick in the first place! > I wouldn't be in their shoes in the first place! What an argument.
- qbasic_forever 5y ago
  What do those issues have to do with someone who chooses to be a sexual predator?
- only_as_i_fall 5y ago
  Do you not see how one of those things is a choice and the other 3 aren't?
overgard 5y ago
I'm glad we've found the first person in life who has never made a mistake! What a shining example you are.
- qbasic_forever 5y ago
  I have never been a sexual predator and will commit to never being one in the future. This is something I would wager the vast, vast majority of the public can commit to too. This is not something weird or out of the ordinary.
  - Talanes 5y ago
    Or you just haven't realized which actions you've taken are predatory yet.
    - Jetrel 5y ago
      This is really the chief danger here - it's the ability to retroactively label anything as predatory. You don't actually have to be guilty; in fact, what's perhaps the most dangerous aspect is that you don't have to have even been a party to the matter, innocent or not. Someone who just plain doesn't like you can levy an accusation, and even if you've literally never interacted with them in your life, you're guilty. I've seen it happen firsthand. To quote Cardinal Richelieu, "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him." This behavior really has nothing to do with the nature of the crime at hand; it's been used to discriminate against people by race, by gender, by interest, by religion - by just about anything. Giving human beings the ability to arbitrarily punish other humans, without recourse, is obscenely dangerous.
  - moistbar 5y ago
    Someone, somewhere, thinks something you did is reprehensible.
nsxwolf 5y ago
I hear this said a lot today by people I grew up with. No dude, I was there. I remember how much you loved to tell racist jokes. Not one example, dozens.
- qbasic_forever 5y ago
  What does that anecdote have to do with me living my life and continuing to live my life without being a sexual predator?
  - moate 5y ago
    The point is: In a society in which we have violent factions opposing one another on an single basic idea, what sins are truly and permanently unforgivable by a society? We would all seem to agreed that a legal framework is more valuable than vigilante justice, but people on all sides admit the courts don't work all the time. What is the right choice? And can offenders reform? For example, I'm of the (extremely unpopular) opinion that we're too hard on sex criminals. The framework the US has put together doesn't just not help reformation, but in many ways encourages recidivism by limiting employment and housing options. But what's the right choice? Am I right because I'm backed by dozens of studies by social scientists? Or is the local parent mob right to "protect their children" by keeping laws on the books that keep sex offenders in the fringes of community? If a child molester gets off on a technicality, is the victim's father who murders him a hero or a villain? What about other crimes? In China you can go to jail for 10 days without prosecution for possessing pot. Here in NJ I can smoke a blunt on my front lawn as a police parade goes by and I'm fine. Who is right? IDK, I'm just rambling at this point. This whole debate is so stupid and circular and hypocritical and fluid on all sides.
moistbar 5y ago
So, to you, there's no possibility for a person to redeem themselves regardless of the nature of their transgression?
jandrese 5y ago
Some people had the norms change out from under them. In the past the societal norm was that Women were supposed to be shy and demure and pretend to be uninterested in sex. The men were supposed to take charge and "conquer". Nowadays we know this is dumb and causes tons of unwanted harassment. People changed and made the world a better place, which was great. Then we went back and started prosecuting people for doing what they were told they were supposed to be doing at the time. This is why we have grandfather clauses in the law. The difference between Sexual Harassment and Flirting is if the other person is into it.