4 ms·

I guess the simple rule of not being a dick still holds a little truth.

lovecg 5y ago
On the other hand the rule of “if you’ve ever been a dick in the past, your life and career should be destroyed proportionality be damned” seems like a societal failure.
- ThaDood 5y ago
  I agree, I'm not saying you should have your entire life uprooted because you said something stupid on Twitter when you were like 13. The situation in this case is a little different. Again, don't be a dick or try to avoid it when possible and I don't think you will have to worry about being canceled.
  - lovecg 5y ago
    What do you think about cases like this one? https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/mount-allison-suspension-professor-1.6016047 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/mount-allison-s... An immigrant _tenured_ professor in Canada got suspended for saying that Canada is not racist on her blog. Was she being a dick? Does she deserve the “consequences”? At what point do we stop saying “oh these are isolated incidents and not a trend”?
    - xyzzy_plugh 5y ago
      As a Canadian, yeah that's a pretty awful thing to say. Canada is definitely racist -- and I'd go so far as to say that it's safe to assume that everywhere and everyone is racist to some extent. Supporting the idea that you (individual, organization, country, whatever) are not racist makes it convenient to ignore efforts to combat racism ("why should we combat racism when there isn't any") which should be universally supported. So yeah she was being a dick. As a representative of Mount Allison, they decided her behaviour was problematic, which they are in the right to do. Just because you're a powerful person with a fancy title doesn't make you immune from consequences of shitty behaviour.
      - lovecg 5y ago
        If you don’t mind me asking, did you grow up in Canada? When you’re saying that Canada is racist do you have any experiences of living in other countries to compare with? Can you point out specific examples of Canada being a racist country? Nowhere is perfect, but allow me to say that Canada (and even the US for that matter) are vastly less racist compared to many places. I can see someone who grew up with different experiences be bewildered by the assertion. Do you not find it ironic that an immigrant non-white professor is being criticized by mostly white Canadians for her views and different experiences? Actually yeah maybe Canada is racist after all.
        xyzzy_plugh 5y ago
        > Can you point out specific examples of Canada being a racist country? I'm guessing you didn't grow up in Canada. There's a whole Wikipedia article on the topic[0], some of which is covered during the common Canadian education. Other examples are commonplace knowledge. In particular, Aboriginal peoples have generally been treated quite poorly throughout Canada's history. This is further evidenced by the recent headlines, if you don't live under a rock. I do have experiences in other countries to compare with, but I am not interested in comparisons, and I really don't know what that matters. I don't know any of that has to do with my statements. > Nowhere is perfect, but allow me to say that Canada (and even the US for that matter) are vastly less racist compared to many places. Sure, Canada (and the USA) might be "less racist" compared to other places but that doesn't really mean anything. I think very highly of Canada compared to my experiences in the rest of the world, and I'd like to add I did not feel this way until after experiencing other parts of the world. The more I experienced elsewhere, the more I appreciate how good Canadians have it. But that doesn't mean it's a bastion of equality and its people without prejudices. We can always do better. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Canada
        lovecg 5y ago
        Thank you for your response. In some ways I have a reverse experience: I grew up elsewhere and then moved to Canada (I did get to go to school for a few years). I was blown away by how accepting and open the Canadian society was. Trust me, you have a very good thing going. Even with the examples you give, you realize that teaching about racist historical mistakes in school is far from the norm in many other countries. Let me offer an analogy. You might think that some aspects of the Canadian government are corrupt, while I on the other hand would grant that there might be some issues but would emphatically agree that “Canada is NOT a corrupt country”. Would you still say something like: “Supporting the idea that you (individual, organization, country, whatever) are not corrupt makes it convenient to ignore efforts to combat corruption ("why should we combat corruption when there isn't any") which should be universally supported.”? Would you still agree that it’s right to cancel someone over saying that “Canada is NOT corrupt”? Because I see very little difference between the two situations.
    - ThaDood 5y ago
      I thought it might be kind of obvious but I think I tend to forget that things posted online are missing some critical context. So anyways, I really I don't want to be dismissive of fair and valid criticisms but its hard to articulate my opinion on the matter in a short and semi-awkward format like HN. Basically what I am trying to say is that my point is probably a little more nuanced then it seems. That being said, I do think that there are circumstances in which being "canceled" might not be warranted. I have not heard of the case you are referencing specifically until just now. I read the article and found the prof on RateMyProfessor and overall they do not seem like a shitty person, however I would still like to read the "confidential" report the school conducted even though that is probably not possible as that might change my opinion. Also I am not Canadian and most of the Canadians I know/have experiences with do not outright strike me as racist. Of course current trends I have seen in both the US and Canada have lead me to rethink that people/areas are not inherently free of racial prejudice and if Canada has a somewhat similar history to the US, there is most certainly a bit of racism. I digress, I think canceling can be a problem for situations like the one you referenced and I do not want to undersell how shitty it can be for someone who is on the wrong end of it. In some cases in may be warranted if the proper mechanism for fairness or recourse are not working. I guess it just kind of depends.
b215826 5y ago
But who gets to decide what counts as "dickish" behavior?
- liotier 5y ago
  The bartender. But seriously, different places have different rules - hang out in a club that welcomes you !
- ThaDood 5y ago
  Fair point. I guess it just depends on what groups you are in and the norms that are present in said groups.

On the other hand the rule of “if you’ve ever been a dick in the past, your life and career should be destroyed proportionality be damned” seems like a societal failure.

ThaDood 5y ago
I agree, I'm not saying you should have your entire life uprooted because you said something stupid on Twitter when you were like 13. The situation in this case is a little different. Again, don't be a dick or try to avoid it when possible and I don't think you will have to worry about being canceled.
- lovecg 5y ago
  What do you think about cases like this one? https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/mount-allison-suspension-professor-1.6016047 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/mount-allison-s... An immigrant _tenured_ professor in Canada got suspended for saying that Canada is not racist on her blog. Was she being a dick? Does she deserve the “consequences”? At what point do we stop saying “oh these are isolated incidents and not a trend”?
  - xyzzy_plugh 5y ago
    As a Canadian, yeah that's a pretty awful thing to say. Canada is definitely racist -- and I'd go so far as to say that it's safe to assume that everywhere and everyone is racist to some extent. Supporting the idea that you (individual, organization, country, whatever) are not racist makes it convenient to ignore efforts to combat racism ("why should we combat racism when there isn't any") which should be universally supported. So yeah she was being a dick. As a representative of Mount Allison, they decided her behaviour was problematic, which they are in the right to do. Just because you're a powerful person with a fancy title doesn't make you immune from consequences of shitty behaviour.
    - lovecg 5y ago
      If you don’t mind me asking, did you grow up in Canada? When you’re saying that Canada is racist do you have any experiences of living in other countries to compare with? Can you point out specific examples of Canada being a racist country? Nowhere is perfect, but allow me to say that Canada (and even the US for that matter) are vastly less racist compared to many places. I can see someone who grew up with different experiences be bewildered by the assertion. Do you not find it ironic that an immigrant non-white professor is being criticized by mostly white Canadians for her views and different experiences? Actually yeah maybe Canada is racist after all.
      - xyzzy_plugh 5y ago
        > Can you point out specific examples of Canada being a racist country? I'm guessing you didn't grow up in Canada. There's a whole Wikipedia article on the topic[0], some of which is covered during the common Canadian education. Other examples are commonplace knowledge. In particular, Aboriginal peoples have generally been treated quite poorly throughout Canada's history. This is further evidenced by the recent headlines, if you don't live under a rock. I do have experiences in other countries to compare with, but I am not interested in comparisons, and I really don't know what that matters. I don't know any of that has to do with my statements. > Nowhere is perfect, but allow me to say that Canada (and even the US for that matter) are vastly less racist compared to many places. Sure, Canada (and the USA) might be "less racist" compared to other places but that doesn't really mean anything. I think very highly of Canada compared to my experiences in the rest of the world, and I'd like to add I did not feel this way until after experiencing other parts of the world. The more I experienced elsewhere, the more I appreciate how good Canadians have it. But that doesn't mean it's a bastion of equality and its people without prejudices. We can always do better. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Canada
        lovecg 5y ago
        Thank you for your response. In some ways I have a reverse experience: I grew up elsewhere and then moved to Canada (I did get to go to school for a few years). I was blown away by how accepting and open the Canadian society was. Trust me, you have a very good thing going. Even with the examples you give, you realize that teaching about racist historical mistakes in school is far from the norm in many other countries. Let me offer an analogy. You might think that some aspects of the Canadian government are corrupt, while I on the other hand would grant that there might be some issues but would emphatically agree that “Canada is NOT a corrupt country”. Would you still say something like: “Supporting the idea that you (individual, organization, country, whatever) are not corrupt makes it convenient to ignore efforts to combat corruption ("why should we combat corruption when there isn't any") which should be universally supported.”? Would you still agree that it’s right to cancel someone over saying that “Canada is NOT corrupt”? Because I see very little difference between the two situations.
  - ThaDood 5y ago
    I thought it might be kind of obvious but I think I tend to forget that things posted online are missing some critical context. So anyways, I really I don't want to be dismissive of fair and valid criticisms but its hard to articulate my opinion on the matter in a short and semi-awkward format like HN. Basically what I am trying to say is that my point is probably a little more nuanced then it seems. That being said, I do think that there are circumstances in which being "canceled" might not be warranted. I have not heard of the case you are referencing specifically until just now. I read the article and found the prof on RateMyProfessor and overall they do not seem like a shitty person, however I would still like to read the "confidential" report the school conducted even though that is probably not possible as that might change my opinion. Also I am not Canadian and most of the Canadians I know/have experiences with do not outright strike me as racist. Of course current trends I have seen in both the US and Canada have lead me to rethink that people/areas are not inherently free of racial prejudice and if Canada has a somewhat similar history to the US, there is most certainly a bit of racism. I digress, I think canceling can be a problem for situations like the one you referenced and I do not want to undersell how shitty it can be for someone who is on the wrong end of it. In some cases in may be warranted if the proper mechanism for fairness or recourse are not working. I guess it just kind of depends.

b215826 5y ago

But who gets to decide what counts as "dickish" behavior?

liotier 5y ago
The bartender. But seriously, different places have different rules - hang out in a club that welcomes you !
ThaDood 5y ago
Fair point. I guess it just depends on what groups you are in and the norms that are present in said groups.