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If you haven't read Ordinary Men (https://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-Men-Reserve-Battalion-Solution/dp/0062303023 https://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-Men-Reserve-Batta

If you haven't read Ordinary Men (https://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-Men-Reserve-Battalion-Solution/dp/0062303023 https://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-Men-Reserve-Battalion-Soluti...) by Christopher Browning I think you would like it, the book is about who follows appalling orders, why they do, and what does (and doesn't) happen to them if they don't. I think that most of us like to think we would be the moral exception, it offers some mental comfort, but it's far more likely that we won't.

watwut 5y ago
The newer introduction from Richard J. Evans ia interesting tho. These were not entirely ordinary men as in representing ordinary Germans. They were righ-wing supporters and their political convictions made them ok with those orders. They perceived Reich as free long after everyone else was persecuted, after synagoges were burned etc.
- the_af 5y ago
  This is an important distinction! Since not all of us are right-wing supporters, antisemites, or believe in the racial superiority and the innate right to rule of this or that race, this means it's not true that all of us would happily engage in rape and ethnic cleansing just because we're told by some authority figure that it's right to do so.
the_af 5y ago
I'm familiar with Ordinary Men and also with Hitler's Willing Executioners and I think they prove my point. > what does (and doesn't) happen to them if they don't This is key. What happens if they didn't follow orders? It turns out that... pretty much nothing. You could get away with not following orders. So those who did anyway, murdered, tortured and raped, are monsters in my eyes. Their lives weren't even in immediate danger! > I think that most of us like to think we would be the moral exception, it offers some mental comfort, but it's far more likely that we won't. If you think you would break down and commit rape, torture and murder, then I'm sorry for you. I'm nothing like you then, and most decent people aren't either. I'm not naive: I know there's a lot of behavior people will engage in under extreme conditions -- I can admit cannibalism, robbery, violence and lots of things unacceptable in normal society -- but there IS a line, and torture and rape are way beyond that line. I'm willing to admit under exceptional duress I'd betray my country and my friends. I can see myself being forced to shoot another human being "or else". What I cannot absolutely accept from you or anybody else is to claim "well, if I'm threatened with torture or death then I can break and be willing to rape women and crush their babies". I'm sorry but I cannot, and if you think you would, I hope I never meet you in person: you terrify me. If it comes to a point where someone tells me "unless you rape this child, I'll do the same to your children" then I might as well accept we're all doomed and it's beyond anything I can do. I won't commit rape, period. Note we're discussing the Trawniki men in this context. Read about what they did before claiming everyone in their position would do the same. These were really scum, the worst of the worst.
- seniorThrowaway 5y ago
  >If you think you would break down and commit rape, torture and murder, then I'm sorry for you. I'm nothing like you then, and most decent people aren't either. I'm not talking about that level, I'm talking about: >I can see myself being forced to shoot another human being "or else" I was speaking in the context of the reservists described in Ordinary Men in this comment, not the Trawnikis, though I still don't agree with your blanket characterization of them. Please provide the references you speak of about them being the worst of the worst. Their wikipedia article claims with references that approximately 1000 out of 5000 ran off during operations, that hardly seems like the actions of a bunch of willing sadists frothing at the mouth to kill.

watwut 5y ago

The newer introduction from Richard J. Evans ia interesting tho. These were not entirely ordinary men as in representing ordinary Germans. They were righ-wing supporters and their political convictions made them ok with those orders. They perceived Reich as free long after everyone else was persecuted, after synagoges were burned etc.

the_af 5y ago
This is an important distinction! Since not all of us are right-wing supporters, antisemites, or believe in the racial superiority and the innate right to rule of this or that race, this means it's not true that all of us would happily engage in rape and ethnic cleansing just because we're told by some authority figure that it's right to do so.

the_af 5y ago

I'm familiar with Ordinary Men and also with Hitler's Willing Executioners and I think they prove my point. > what does (and doesn't) happen to them if they don't This is key. What happens if they didn't follow orders? It turns out that... pretty much nothing. You could get away with not following orders. So those who did anyway, murdered, tortured and raped, are monsters in my eyes. Their lives weren't even in immediate danger! > I think that most of us like to think we would be the moral exception, it offers some mental comfort, but it's far more likely that we won't. If you think you would break down and commit rape, torture and murder, then I'm sorry for you. I'm nothing like you then, and most decent people aren't either. I'm not naive: I know there's a lot of behavior people will engage in under extreme conditions -- I can admit cannibalism, robbery, violence and lots of things unacceptable in normal society -- but there IS a line, and torture and rape are way beyond that line. I'm willing to admit under exceptional duress I'd betray my country and my friends. I can see myself being forced to shoot another human being "or else". What I cannot absolutely accept from you or anybody else is to claim "well, if I'm threatened with torture or death then I can break and be willing to rape women and crush their babies". I'm sorry but I cannot, and if you think you would, I hope I never meet you in person: you terrify me. If it comes to a point where someone tells me "unless you rape this child, I'll do the same to your children" then I might as well accept we're all doomed and it's beyond anything I can do. I won't commit rape, period. Note we're discussing the Trawniki men in this context. Read about what they did before claiming everyone in their position would do the same. These were really scum, the worst of the worst.

seniorThrowaway 5y ago
>If you think you would break down and commit rape, torture and murder, then I'm sorry for you. I'm nothing like you then, and most decent people aren't either. I'm not talking about that level, I'm talking about: >I can see myself being forced to shoot another human being "or else" I was speaking in the context of the reservists described in Ordinary Men in this comment, not the Trawnikis, though I still don't agree with your blanket characterization of them. Please provide the references you speak of about them being the worst of the worst. Their wikipedia article claims with references that approximately 1000 out of 5000 ran off during operations, that hardly seems like the actions of a bunch of willing sadists frothing at the mouth to kill.