4 ms·

This seems like a rabbit whole, at some point there's no objective ethics, you pick your line. Are you going to include bacteria, yeast, common viruses, dust mi

This seems like a rabbit whole, at some point there's no objective ethics, you pick your line. Are you going to include bacteria, yeast, common viruses, dust mites, there's plenty to choose from. I think one thing that seems relevant to humans, is we seem to be bothered only once we can relate to the other being in a more explicit way. This is true even between our peers. Maybe as we understand more and more of other creatures so will our empathy.

neom 5y ago
Jainism takes this pretty far, I've been learning a bit about it recently and it's pretty interesting as far as ancient religions go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism Particularly good if you're interested in diving in more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c33XPyljUiw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c33XPyljUiw
- silicon2401 5y ago
  Thanks for sharing, I'm in the same boat. I love the logical consistency of Jainism, as I've always found vegans drawing the line at animals but not plants to be a bit arbitrary. Setting the goal as avoiding harming all life and then getting as close to that as you can without just starving to death is something I deeply admire. Not to mention the attention to microscopic life is particularly impressive and science-aware imo.
cheese_goddess 5y ago
Speaking of yeasts, I guess it's not something that's on everyone's minds, but the reason bread rises is because yeasts die in the heat of the oven and, reacting to the deadly environmental conditions, radically increase their rate of fermentation of the carbohydrates in the dough thus releasing abnormally large amounts of CO2 in a very short time. Essentially, bread rises because of the the death throes of tiny, microscopic unicellular fungi.
- gus_massa 5y ago
  Are you sure? I think the yeast produces CO2 before cooking and during the initial part of the cooking (while the drought temperature is below 40°C(???)). Most enzymes a cells have a temperature where they have an optimal efficiency, so I expect the yeast not to be so efficient when the drought is too hot. But when the drought get hot the tiny bubbles of CO2 expand and when it's too hot and the drought get cooked and the structure around the bubbles is fixed like in a sponge.
- mattkrause 5y ago
  Are you sure about that? My impression was that fermentation outside the oven causes most of the rising, with a bit of "oven spring" from the vaporization of water in the dough. The yeast obviously die in the oven, but I don't think the death per se is critical for the leavening.
- TheRealPomax 5y ago
  No? They produce alcohol and CO2 during rising/proofing, and that gas has nowhere to go: it's trapped in the dough. Once heated, that trapped gas then expands during baking. The yeast dies, yes, but bread doesn't rise "because of the death throes of [yeast]", it rises because heating a gas increases in pressure, and the dough expands because of that pressure. Yes, the heat also kills the yeast, but that has nothing to do with oven spring. (And of course, the spring only "sticks" if the dough is both elastic enough to permit that expansion -for example because it has a gluten network- and developed enough that, in that expanded state, the dough can set well enough to support its own shape, rather than deflating once we remove the heat, and the high pressure gasses cool down and contract, pull the now baked bread in on itself)
- cheese_goddess 5y ago
  Replying to all sibling comments: oh, well. Maybe I know that wrong. I'll have to go back to find the source where I took this. I don't remember what that source was.
muki 5y ago
I would just like to point out that the existence of (what I assume you mean when you say) "objective ethics" isn't a sure thing. I don't mean to imply that ethical nihilism (basically saying ethics aren't "a thing") is the only way forward though. We can probably assign ethical value to human action even (some would say especially) if "objective ethics" don't exist.

neom 5y ago

Jainism takes this pretty far, I've been learning a bit about it recently and it's pretty interesting as far as ancient religions go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism Particularly good if you're interested in diving in more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c33XPyljUiw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c33XPyljUiw

silicon2401 5y ago
Thanks for sharing, I'm in the same boat. I love the logical consistency of Jainism, as I've always found vegans drawing the line at animals but not plants to be a bit arbitrary. Setting the goal as avoiding harming all life and then getting as close to that as you can without just starving to death is something I deeply admire. Not to mention the attention to microscopic life is particularly impressive and science-aware imo.

cheese_goddess 5y ago

Speaking of yeasts, I guess it's not something that's on everyone's minds, but the reason bread rises is because yeasts die in the heat of the oven and, reacting to the deadly environmental conditions, radically increase their rate of fermentation of the carbohydrates in the dough thus releasing abnormally large amounts of CO2 in a very short time. Essentially, bread rises because of the the death throes of tiny, microscopic unicellular fungi.

gus_massa 5y ago
Are you sure? I think the yeast produces CO2 before cooking and during the initial part of the cooking (while the drought temperature is below 40°C(???)). Most enzymes a cells have a temperature where they have an optimal efficiency, so I expect the yeast not to be so efficient when the drought is too hot. But when the drought get hot the tiny bubbles of CO2 expand and when it's too hot and the drought get cooked and the structure around the bubbles is fixed like in a sponge.
mattkrause 5y ago
Are you sure about that? My impression was that fermentation outside the oven causes most of the rising, with a bit of "oven spring" from the vaporization of water in the dough. The yeast obviously die in the oven, but I don't think the death per se is critical for the leavening.
TheRealPomax 5y ago
No? They produce alcohol and CO2 during rising/proofing, and that gas has nowhere to go: it's trapped in the dough. Once heated, that trapped gas then expands during baking. The yeast dies, yes, but bread doesn't rise "because of the death throes of [yeast]", it rises because heating a gas increases in pressure, and the dough expands because of that pressure. Yes, the heat also kills the yeast, but that has nothing to do with oven spring. (And of course, the spring only "sticks" if the dough is both elastic enough to permit that expansion -for example because it has a gluten network- and developed enough that, in that expanded state, the dough can set well enough to support its own shape, rather than deflating once we remove the heat, and the high pressure gasses cool down and contract, pull the now baked bread in on itself)
cheese_goddess 5y ago
Replying to all sibling comments: oh, well. Maybe I know that wrong. I'll have to go back to find the source where I took this. I don't remember what that source was.

muki 5y ago

I would just like to point out that the existence of (what I assume you mean when you say) "objective ethics" isn't a sure thing. I don't mean to imply that ethical nihilism (basically saying ethics aren't "a thing") is the only way forward though. We can probably assign ethical value to human action even (some would say especially) if "objective ethics" don't exist.