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I think a lot of the responses to the straw man's questions are reasonable and thoughtful. But I think this sentiment: >I don't want to change the way I work,

I think a lot of the responses to the straw man's questions are reasonable and thoughtful. But I think this sentiment: >I don't want to change the way I work, I just want people to join me in the office. My kids are driving me crazy. Is it weird to say I'm lonely; I miss my office friends. Deserves more respect. There are lot of types of people out there, and it seems like at least some of them are energized by being surrounded by smart people doing interesting work. For whatever reason, for some folks, exchanging Slack messages with those same smart people isn't similarly energizing compared to overhearing and jumping into interesting in-person conversations, etc. Maybe the tech giants need to be very accommodating to remote work in order to maintain their massive workforces, but I think a lot of typical companies could just say "we prefer being in-office" and find sufficient local folks to make that happen. That won't be for everyone. But there might be a sizeable enough cohort that performs better in the office that it'll be a good option for some companies.

tablespoonsruby 5y ago
In the same way that most people don't want to pair program full time, but it's perfectly legitimate for a company to decide it wants to be a full-time pairing shop if they think it's important enough to limit their hiring pool to people who want to pair program, it's perfectly legitimate for a company to decide it does not want to be remote.
- kelnos 5y ago
  The problem is, as usual, one of power imbalance. Employers -- especially those in industries where unions and collective bargaining is unusual -- tend to have a lot more power in the relationship than their employees do, so they get to dictate terms, at least up until the point that labor willing to accept those terms becomes scarce. I think we can agree that if every software company decided that they were going to be a full-time pairing shop, that'd be a bad thing. In the same way, I don't think it'd be too much of a stretch to also suggest that it'd be bad if all employers decided that their workers had to be butts-in-seats 40 hours (or more) per week, no exceptions.
  - tablespoonsruby 5y ago
    > I don't think it'd be too much of a stretch to also suggest that it'd be bad if all employers decided that their workers had to be butts-in-seats 40 hours (or more) per week, no exceptions. Well, yes. That's not happening, though. My point is that I see people essentially claiming that it's immoral for any companies to not permit remote work, and I disagree with that.
    - tolbish 5y ago
      What is the difference between mandated butts in seats for 40 hours and not permitting remote work?
      - tablespoonsruby 5y ago
        Nothing. There's a difference between all employers forbidding remote work, and only some of them doing so.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
MattGaiser 5y ago
WFH opinion seems to split between people who see work as where you achieve corporate goals for pay and those who see it as a far more encompassing mixture of human experience.
- i_haz_rabies 5y ago
  This is a really great way of summarizing it.
- saiojd 5y ago
  Your description summarizes what I've been trying to express so concisely – it's almost shocking. I'm left wondering on what side of the split you stand on.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    I mostly care about the corporate goals. I have far less of a normal life than most people and am far more obsessive about the kinds of things I do spend my time on than most people, so I don't personally bond that easily nor enjoy the casual moments or marshmallow and spaghetti tower building. I enjoy objectives and racing towards them.
    - saiojd 5y ago
      I see! I understand the obsessiveness, I believe, but to me WFH (which I dislike) seems more of a way of "checking out/focusing on the rest of my life" than to truly indulge in work. I find it interesting that you have a similar understanding of things but a very different point of view.
- maigret 5y ago
  I disagree fully with that statement. It’s completely oversimplifying the reasons to mostly work from home. One might want to spend more time with their loved ones, save money because of commute, might enjoy knowledge seeking and learning by themselves and love long focused work. You can get the human experience in many different ways. For example why meeting the colleagues at the far away office if most of them leave near downtown? You can have retreats and goal oriented team events… there are lots of possible combinations.
dilippkumar 5y ago
>I don't want to change the way I work I understand. > I just want people to join me in the office. Not cool, don’t make me change my lifestyle. > My kids are driving me crazy. I understand. > Is it weird to say I'm lonely; I understand. > I miss my office friends. I understand.
- jonny_eh 5y ago
  > > I just want people to join me in the office. > Not cool, don’t make me change my lifestyle. Having everyone work at home also changes my lifestyle. There's no way to make everyone happy.
  - kelnos 5y ago
    Gah, I keep reading this over and over and it's so straw-man infuriating. No one is saying "shut down all offices". Half of the company working from home every day of the week does not preclude the other half from working from an office. We can all actually get what we want here; let's stop pretending this is an us vs. them fight.
    - jonny_eh 5y ago
      I can't work with you in the office if you're not in the office.
  - rodly 5y ago
    It's not a symmetric need though. Your need requires other people to be around you to have your ideal lifestyle. The WFH need doesn't require other people to do anything different (we all use slack/email/etc regardless of where we physically are). Your need is wronging others (requiring them to spend time commuting and being in a distracting office) and their need (you aren't affected) is not wronging others. It's insane that so many people are okay pathetically dragging other people into a shitty situation just to make themselves happy.
- anoncake 5y ago
  You don't get to force everyone out of the office and complain when you're forced to "change your lifestyle" when things recover to normal.
wayoutthere 5y ago
So I think this expectation that work provide social connection only works for some people. I like the people I work with, but I have no need to spend time with them in person because I have other social outlets. If I have to participate in another social scene because someone I work with is lonely, that’s gas out of my tank to solve their problem. I don’t really have a lot in common with my coworkers except we work together. Join a casual sports league or a club or something but don’t make me pretend to be your friend just to draw a paycheck. This is one aspect of work I have no interest in restarting.
- WFHRenaissance 5y ago
  Agreed. At the risk of being a jerk I really want to tell people: 1. Get a life worth working for. 2. Maybe spend less time working.
- kelnos 5y ago
  This is the thing that really annoys me, the suggestion that I have an obligation to solve the personal-interaction needs of my co-workers. I have become genuine non-work friends with some (former and current) co-workers. But there are many with whom I have no interest in being friends, or even talking to them for one second more than is necessary for us to get our jobs done, and that's ok. I shouldn't be forced to fulfill their social needs; that's their job to do on their own time.
wwweston 5y ago
As somebody who finds social engagement with a task or knowledge domain pretty pleasant (and one way of reinforcing productivity), I do respect this. Up to the point where it becomes "I don't want to change the way I work, so everyone has to join me in the office." Lots of organization big enough to feel like they need a uniform policy are probably also big enough to find mutually accommodating and perhaps even complementary subgroups within the org. Assuming they want to do the work rather than just standardizing on everyone on-site, open floor plans (except management, of course), sun-at-noonday overhead high-blue fluorescent lighting, etc etc.
luckydata 5y ago
yes, but kids are going back to school. The "i'm lonely" part is an effect of how bad US cities are for social interaction. I guarantee you if you live in a European city you're not starved for social interaction, you can go to your neighborhood watering hole, or square, and meet with your actual friends anytime.
- grawprog 5y ago
  I have to ask, how realistic has it been to do such things in most places over the last year? I mean WFH or not, most places, governments have not allowed people to do any of those things for the better part of a year.
  - lm28469 5y ago
    I'm in Berlin and haven't changed a thing in my social life besides the occasional bar/restaurant I still enjoyed drinks and meals with friends outside. People made it much worse to themselves than they had to. There was a few weeks of crazy lockdown rules but even during these the police never bothered me when I was walking out at night with a friend. Most laws were passed so that they could have the legal rights to break up parties and large groups. Besides France I don't know a lot of places that enforced a "stay at home and don't meet anyone at any time for any reasons" lockdown for very long
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  There might be something to that, but I think you still have to actually get to the watering hole / square / etc. Many people complain about there being no more boundaries when WFH, working all the time, etc. I think the issue is more psychological than purely logistical. I live in Paris, where you can easily find a watering hole within walking distance [0], yet I used to hear this same sentiment from colleagues even before Covid was a thing. At a previous job we used to work a lot from home, which I really enjoyed, and whenever I brought the subject up at the current one, many people would comment something along the lines of "I don't know, I'd hate to be alone all the time". And this was coming from people who seemed fairly sociable and who were often talking about friends outside work (so they weren't isolated). --- [0] Assuming you live in Paris proper, not in the far-away suburbs.
ecf 5y ago
On the contrary, I feel it deserves LESS respect. Treating the office as an escape from an undesirable at-home situation and then having the audacity to try to force more people to be in-person is incredibly selfish behavior. If these people truly need that social interaction, how about putting more effort into community/personal relationships instead of workplace relationships?
- mattbk1 5y ago
  I think the word "option" probably needs to be emphasized more here. My workplace is moving toward hybrid, which allows this option. > That won't be for everyone. But there might be a sizeable enough cohort that performs better in the office that it'll be a good option for some companies.
  - jeremyjh 5y ago
    No, the option GP is referring to is the option for the company to decide everyone is working at the office, not for it to be optional for the employees.
- alextheparrot 5y ago
  We should respect honesty more. At least then we can talk about the real issues, like maybe finding relationships in a non-work context. We can call this person selfish and attend to the root malice only because they were honest. If they just contrived a reason to further their goal state, then they are being both duplicitous and selfish, which seems to be something we should respect less?
- Grimm1 5y ago
  For what it's worth, without the word option being emphasized here, yours is an equally selfish desire because it brings harm to that person or group of people who prefer the office experience. I liked working in an office, sorry you don't.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    I'm confused about what you're arguing. Are you saying "by allowing people the freedom to work from home it harms people who wish those other people would join them in the office"? Or are you saying, "I realize you're not saying people should be forced to come into the office, but if you were arguing that it would be very selfish"? One of those is absurd and the other is the weirdest kind of straw man I've ever heard.
NikolaNovak 5y ago
I mean, I'm a strong introvert (defined here as somebody who likes people but is drained by socialization). Any given day I'd prefer working at home than from office; will prefer lunch at computer than cafeteria; dinner with friends or "me time" over team-building exercise; being at home with family than in office with co-workers. I'm friendly with my co-workers but we're not out-of-office friends -- I have my own circle of friends and family and interests. But working from home, only home, for 16 months now? At macro level, it drained me of motivation after a few months - and it took a lot of self-examination to realize I'm no longer at my peak and why, because the change was slow and subtle. I lose this internal intuitive feeling of what we're doing and more importantly, why it matters. Everything is just words on the screen; success or failure, it's just an email or slack. There's no energy and pride to soak in when we wrap up a project. And most of all, I recognize I'm highly motivated by successful peers I respect; and I just don't get to experience that the same way. I see the good results/work of my peers, but I don't get to "see them be successful / good at their job", which is subtly but critically different thing, more of a continuous and passive experience - what you call "being surrounded by smart people doing interesting work" really rings true. So while any given morning I'd rather stay at home, I recognize that in long term, I'm suffering from only staying home. I cannot IMAGINE what an extrovert is feeling these days :-/. (Oh and yes, I love them to death but there IS such a thing as "too much contiguous time spent with my kids", for me at least it turns out... but office is not necessarily the solution for that:)
- ryandrake 5y ago
  A lot of the calls for returning to office work boil down to people wanting to be in an environment where there's this "hum" of Serious Business™ being done--the "buzz" of people actively present and Doing Interesting Things. It's not the work itself, but excitement at the performance of work going on around them. Lots of work-from-office folks seem to get a charge out of this excitement. Maybe (and I'm half serious) companies should hire actors to simply walk around the office, quietly talk about things, draw things on whiteboards, maybe carry papers to and from the printer, etc. and in general provide that "hum" and "buzz" that people crave. That way, people who want the Office Experience™ can get it, and people who'd rather WFH can have things their way too.
duxup 5y ago
Buddy of mine works from home, he hates it because he has a studio apartment and wants to get out of that one room. I'm pretty sympathetic as not everyone's home is handy to work from. Folks with fewer means have smaller homes / fewer resources there. I can afford to outfit a big space, folks with smaller homes / different situations very much can't.
- datameta 5y ago
  I work with a mobile desk in front of a couch so that when work is done I can either move it aside or switch my monitor input to my personal laptop which really helps compartmentalize work. Once the work laptop is off I have reclaimed the space. Having said that I feel lucky that I've been able to move to a new apartment recently. Now my partner and I have an extra room to dedicate to being a work space and we're no longer taking up the living room to that end. This is a huge QoL improvement. I think self-care becomes much more important when one has a limited indoor space that is seeing mixed use. Even just making making sure one takes 1 or 2 walks a day is a huge improvement in energy, mental clarity, motivation, positive outlook, etc.
- kelnos 5y ago
  The thing that's bothering me about this argument (and many like it) is that it assumes that we're calling for a complete end to office life. We're not. We just want more flexibility, and many of us would still like to come into an office once, twice, thrice, or even four times a week. And even for those of us (like myself) who would rather not go to an office at all, we don't have a problem with people who do want to spend time in an office. There's nothing stopping companies from offering office space to employees who want it. We just don't want it to be required of everyone, as it so often was pre-pandemic.
topspin 5y ago
You quoted part of that without comment on something I think is crucial: "My kids are driving me crazy." I've seen that in practice. Long ago I watched a manager of mine on a lengthy call with his wife discussing the absolute chaos going on at home with the kids, the school, etc. When he hung up he said the most sincere thing I ever heard from him; "Thank God for work." And he had a wife at home to referee it all. If one then asks what might the conditions of a household be where she works as well... Yeah. That explains a lot.
- Uhhrrr 5y ago
  My data point is that it sucks, distance learning sucked, and my wife just quit her full time job so we could at least get to your manager's state. None of this bears on whether people should be allowed to work remotely, of course.
  - topspin 5y ago
    So when the parents indulge the escape of "work" because home is a living nightmare what are we left with to raise the kids? Instragram?
    - drewcoo 5y ago
      I don't know but I think we need a "scared sterile" program for the kids (similar to "scared straight"). I didn't realize there were so many reluctant parents until COVID. I feel society has coerced people into lives so unhappy that they'd rather spend time at the place everyone else is trying to escape than with their loved ones.
      - closeparen 5y ago
        Spreading child-supervision duties around the extended family and community so parents can do other things besides be with their children 24x7 has been a feature of many human cultures for many thousands of years.
pklausler 5y ago
I love working from home... except when I really need to hash out an idea with smart colleagues in front of a whiteboard. I've gotten a lot more "done" over the past 14 months, I think, but I don't think that everything has been as well thought through as it would previously have been.
- marcind 5y ago
  <(relevant) plug>try our solution to the remote whiteboard problem: https://sharetheboard.com https://sharetheboard.com FYI, since it comes up often: digital annotations will be added in July
  - pklausler 5y ago
    That only works if we're all online at the same time. And yes, so does office discussion, but we're more likely to all be in the office at the same time than we are to all be online simultaneously when remote.
    - marcind 5y ago
      Indeed, the assumption is that you're meeting, as you would with any other remote meeting solution (or in-person white boarding session). That said, you can always whiteboard solo, save your digitized content and upload/send it wherever you want. We'll even support image vectorization soon.
mywittyname 5y ago
What ever happened to social clubs? I remember my grandpa was a member of the Knights of Columbus and would frequently go there to socialize / network. I feel like these clubs used to be pretty common: Scouts, Rotary Club, Moose/Elk Lodge, KoC, Veterans of Foreign Wars (which no longer requires members to be former military), and local cultural/historical clubs are pretty prevalent. I've been to a lot of these clubs at the invite of friends, but found that most of the members are 60+. Maybe these clubs need to get out there and advertise themselves to a younger audience, because it's quite clear that many people need the social outlets that these provide. Plus, dancing is fun and people should do more of it.
- ASinclair 5y ago
  Many of them are affiliated with some organized religion which has been waning for a while now.
- prpl 5y ago
  They have been in a slow decline, along with unions, middle class, and manufacturing, during the rise of the internet and globalization.
  - prpl 5y ago
    Which is to also say that I think these clubs tended to skew towards a white middle-class without a college education. That is a declining demographic.
    - birdyrooster 5y ago
      What about the Insane Juggalo Nation? They seem fairly active still.
  - lostcolony 5y ago
    Actually, they've seen an uptick over the past decade. Specifically because of the need the OP implies, and younger people becoming aware of their existence. The elks, for instance, had ~800k members back in 2012ish, and are over a million currently.
jfrunyon 5y ago
But the people who work poorly when others are regularly distracting them with office chit-chat don't deserve respect? I can guess which type of person you are...
- lastofthemojito 5y ago
  >But the people who work poorly when others are regularly distracting them with office chit-chat don't deserve respect? I certainly don't mean that. Another poster who replied to my original comment compared it to a company that chooses to do pair programming, knowing that not all software developers like pair programming. It'd be fine for some companies to choose to implement pair programming and some not, and for the most part, employees would choose employers that fit their preference. Likewise, I see room for companies that run with being in the office. Not all companies. Not everyone wants that. But if some companies offer remote, some companies are in the office and some offer a mix, I think that's a good thing for the variety of workers out there. There might be some transitional pain if your current employer does something other than your preference, but that's long been the case, and (hopefully) you have other options.
davidbanham 5y ago
I completely respect that for many people the office is a fulcrum of their social life and they don’t want that to change. The remote work revolution actually makes that easier, not harder. We just have to get past the anachronistic idea that the people you share an office with also need to have the same company name written at the top of their paycheques. Invest the money saved on leases and cleaners on coworking memberships for those that want them. They can pick somewhere local with a pleasant commute. They’ll meet and share a space with people from their local area. They’ll be energised by interesting conversations with people from other industries. They can form friendships without the weird distortions of power imbalances caused by their positions in an org chart. If the person at the next desk makes a weird noise when they breathe and always leaves dirty dishes in the sink? Cancel your desk and try a different place. No biggie. Remote work doesn’t have to mean work from home. It’s up to you.

tablespoonsruby 5y ago

In the same way that most people don't want to pair program full time, but it's perfectly legitimate for a company to decide it wants to be a full-time pairing shop if they think it's important enough to limit their hiring pool to people who want to pair program, it's perfectly legitimate for a company to decide it does not want to be remote.

kelnos 5y ago
The problem is, as usual, one of power imbalance. Employers -- especially those in industries where unions and collective bargaining is unusual -- tend to have a lot more power in the relationship than their employees do, so they get to dictate terms, at least up until the point that labor willing to accept those terms becomes scarce. I think we can agree that if every software company decided that they were going to be a full-time pairing shop, that'd be a bad thing. In the same way, I don't think it'd be too much of a stretch to also suggest that it'd be bad if all employers decided that their workers had to be butts-in-seats 40 hours (or more) per week, no exceptions.
- tablespoonsruby 5y ago
  > I don't think it'd be too much of a stretch to also suggest that it'd be bad if all employers decided that their workers had to be butts-in-seats 40 hours (or more) per week, no exceptions. Well, yes. That's not happening, though. My point is that I see people essentially claiming that it's immoral for any companies to not permit remote work, and I disagree with that.
  - tolbish 5y ago
    What is the difference between mandated butts in seats for 40 hours and not permitting remote work?
    - tablespoonsruby 5y ago
      Nothing. There's a difference between all employers forbidding remote work, and only some of them doing so.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]

MattGaiser 5y ago

WFH opinion seems to split between people who see work as where you achieve corporate goals for pay and those who see it as a far more encompassing mixture of human experience.

i_haz_rabies 5y ago
This is a really great way of summarizing it.
saiojd 5y ago
Your description summarizes what I've been trying to express so concisely – it's almost shocking. I'm left wondering on what side of the split you stand on.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  I mostly care about the corporate goals. I have far less of a normal life than most people and am far more obsessive about the kinds of things I do spend my time on than most people, so I don't personally bond that easily nor enjoy the casual moments or marshmallow and spaghetti tower building. I enjoy objectives and racing towards them.
  - saiojd 5y ago
    I see! I understand the obsessiveness, I believe, but to me WFH (which I dislike) seems more of a way of "checking out/focusing on the rest of my life" than to truly indulge in work. I find it interesting that you have a similar understanding of things but a very different point of view.
maigret 5y ago
I disagree fully with that statement. It’s completely oversimplifying the reasons to mostly work from home. One might want to spend more time with their loved ones, save money because of commute, might enjoy knowledge seeking and learning by themselves and love long focused work. You can get the human experience in many different ways. For example why meeting the colleagues at the far away office if most of them leave near downtown? You can have retreats and goal oriented team events… there are lots of possible combinations.

dilippkumar 5y ago

>I don't want to change the way I work I understand. > I just want people to join me in the office. Not cool, don’t make me change my lifestyle. > My kids are driving me crazy. I understand. > Is it weird to say I'm lonely; I understand. > I miss my office friends. I understand.

jonny_eh 5y ago
> > I just want people to join me in the office. > Not cool, don’t make me change my lifestyle. Having everyone work at home also changes my lifestyle. There's no way to make everyone happy.
- kelnos 5y ago
  Gah, I keep reading this over and over and it's so straw-man infuriating. No one is saying "shut down all offices". Half of the company working from home every day of the week does not preclude the other half from working from an office. We can all actually get what we want here; let's stop pretending this is an us vs. them fight.
  - jonny_eh 5y ago
    I can't work with you in the office if you're not in the office.
- rodly 5y ago
  It's not a symmetric need though. Your need requires other people to be around you to have your ideal lifestyle. The WFH need doesn't require other people to do anything different (we all use slack/email/etc regardless of where we physically are). Your need is wronging others (requiring them to spend time commuting and being in a distracting office) and their need (you aren't affected) is not wronging others. It's insane that so many people are okay pathetically dragging other people into a shitty situation just to make themselves happy.
anoncake 5y ago
You don't get to force everyone out of the office and complain when you're forced to "change your lifestyle" when things recover to normal.

wayoutthere 5y ago

So I think this expectation that work provide social connection only works for some people. I like the people I work with, but I have no need to spend time with them in person because I have other social outlets. If I have to participate in another social scene because someone I work with is lonely, that’s gas out of my tank to solve their problem. I don’t really have a lot in common with my coworkers except we work together. Join a casual sports league or a club or something but don’t make me pretend to be your friend just to draw a paycheck. This is one aspect of work I have no interest in restarting.

WFHRenaissance 5y ago
Agreed. At the risk of being a jerk I really want to tell people: 1. Get a life worth working for. 2. Maybe spend less time working.
kelnos 5y ago
This is the thing that really annoys me, the suggestion that I have an obligation to solve the personal-interaction needs of my co-workers. I have become genuine non-work friends with some (former and current) co-workers. But there are many with whom I have no interest in being friends, or even talking to them for one second more than is necessary for us to get our jobs done, and that's ok. I shouldn't be forced to fulfill their social needs; that's their job to do on their own time.

wwweston 5y ago

As somebody who finds social engagement with a task or knowledge domain pretty pleasant (and one way of reinforcing productivity), I do respect this. Up to the point where it becomes "I don't want to change the way I work, so everyone has to join me in the office." Lots of organization big enough to feel like they need a uniform policy are probably also big enough to find mutually accommodating and perhaps even complementary subgroups within the org. Assuming they want to do the work rather than just standardizing on everyone on-site, open floor plans (except management, of course), sun-at-noonday overhead high-blue fluorescent lighting, etc etc.

luckydata 5y ago

yes, but kids are going back to school. The "i'm lonely" part is an effect of how bad US cities are for social interaction. I guarantee you if you live in a European city you're not starved for social interaction, you can go to your neighborhood watering hole, or square, and meet with your actual friends anytime.

grawprog 5y ago
I have to ask, how realistic has it been to do such things in most places over the last year? I mean WFH or not, most places, governments have not allowed people to do any of those things for the better part of a year.
- lm28469 5y ago
  I'm in Berlin and haven't changed a thing in my social life besides the occasional bar/restaurant I still enjoyed drinks and meals with friends outside. People made it much worse to themselves than they had to. There was a few weeks of crazy lockdown rules but even during these the police never bothered me when I was walking out at night with a friend. Most laws were passed so that they could have the legal rights to break up parties and large groups. Besides France I don't know a lot of places that enforced a "stay at home and don't meet anyone at any time for any reasons" lockdown for very long
vladvasiliu 5y ago
There might be something to that, but I think you still have to actually get to the watering hole / square / etc. Many people complain about there being no more boundaries when WFH, working all the time, etc. I think the issue is more psychological than purely logistical. I live in Paris, where you can easily find a watering hole within walking distance [0], yet I used to hear this same sentiment from colleagues even before Covid was a thing. At a previous job we used to work a lot from home, which I really enjoyed, and whenever I brought the subject up at the current one, many people would comment something along the lines of "I don't know, I'd hate to be alone all the time". And this was coming from people who seemed fairly sociable and who were often talking about friends outside work (so they weren't isolated). --- [0] Assuming you live in Paris proper, not in the far-away suburbs.

ecf 5y ago

On the contrary, I feel it deserves LESS respect. Treating the office as an escape from an undesirable at-home situation and then having the audacity to try to force more people to be in-person is incredibly selfish behavior. If these people truly need that social interaction, how about putting more effort into community/personal relationships instead of workplace relationships?

mattbk1 5y ago
I think the word "option" probably needs to be emphasized more here. My workplace is moving toward hybrid, which allows this option. > That won't be for everyone. But there might be a sizeable enough cohort that performs better in the office that it'll be a good option for some companies.
- jeremyjh 5y ago
  No, the option GP is referring to is the option for the company to decide everyone is working at the office, not for it to be optional for the employees.
alextheparrot 5y ago
We should respect honesty more. At least then we can talk about the real issues, like maybe finding relationships in a non-work context. We can call this person selfish and attend to the root malice only because they were honest. If they just contrived a reason to further their goal state, then they are being both duplicitous and selfish, which seems to be something we should respect less?
Grimm1 5y ago
For what it's worth, without the word option being emphasized here, yours is an equally selfish desire because it brings harm to that person or group of people who prefer the office experience. I liked working in an office, sorry you don't.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  I'm confused about what you're arguing. Are you saying "by allowing people the freedom to work from home it harms people who wish those other people would join them in the office"? Or are you saying, "I realize you're not saying people should be forced to come into the office, but if you were arguing that it would be very selfish"? One of those is absurd and the other is the weirdest kind of straw man I've ever heard.

NikolaNovak 5y ago

I mean, I'm a strong introvert (defined here as somebody who likes people but is drained by socialization). Any given day I'd prefer working at home than from office; will prefer lunch at computer than cafeteria; dinner with friends or "me time" over team-building exercise; being at home with family than in office with co-workers. I'm friendly with my co-workers but we're not out-of-office friends -- I have my own circle of friends and family and interests. But working from home, only home, for 16 months now? At macro level, it drained me of motivation after a few months - and it took a lot of self-examination to realize I'm no longer at my peak and why, because the change was slow and subtle. I lose this internal intuitive feeling of what we're doing and more importantly, why it matters. Everything is just words on the screen; success or failure, it's just an email or slack. There's no energy and pride to soak in when we wrap up a project. And most of all, I recognize I'm highly motivated by successful peers I respect; and I just don't get to experience that the same way. I see the good results/work of my peers, but I don't get to "see them be successful / good at their job", which is subtly but critically different thing, more of a continuous and passive experience - what you call "being surrounded by smart people doing interesting work" really rings true. So while any given morning I'd rather stay at home, I recognize that in long term, I'm suffering from only staying home. I cannot IMAGINE what an extrovert is feeling these days :-/. (Oh and yes, I love them to death but there IS such a thing as "too much contiguous time spent with my kids", for me at least it turns out... but office is not necessarily the solution for that:)

ryandrake 5y ago
A lot of the calls for returning to office work boil down to people wanting to be in an environment where there's this "hum" of Serious Business™ being done--the "buzz" of people actively present and Doing Interesting Things. It's not the work itself, but excitement at the performance of work going on around them. Lots of work-from-office folks seem to get a charge out of this excitement. Maybe (and I'm half serious) companies should hire actors to simply walk around the office, quietly talk about things, draw things on whiteboards, maybe carry papers to and from the printer, etc. and in general provide that "hum" and "buzz" that people crave. That way, people who want the Office Experience™ can get it, and people who'd rather WFH can have things their way too.

duxup 5y ago

Buddy of mine works from home, he hates it because he has a studio apartment and wants to get out of that one room. I'm pretty sympathetic as not everyone's home is handy to work from. Folks with fewer means have smaller homes / fewer resources there. I can afford to outfit a big space, folks with smaller homes / different situations very much can't.

datameta 5y ago
I work with a mobile desk in front of a couch so that when work is done I can either move it aside or switch my monitor input to my personal laptop which really helps compartmentalize work. Once the work laptop is off I have reclaimed the space. Having said that I feel lucky that I've been able to move to a new apartment recently. Now my partner and I have an extra room to dedicate to being a work space and we're no longer taking up the living room to that end. This is a huge QoL improvement. I think self-care becomes much more important when one has a limited indoor space that is seeing mixed use. Even just making making sure one takes 1 or 2 walks a day is a huge improvement in energy, mental clarity, motivation, positive outlook, etc.
kelnos 5y ago
The thing that's bothering me about this argument (and many like it) is that it assumes that we're calling for a complete end to office life. We're not. We just want more flexibility, and many of us would still like to come into an office once, twice, thrice, or even four times a week. And even for those of us (like myself) who would rather not go to an office at all, we don't have a problem with people who do want to spend time in an office. There's nothing stopping companies from offering office space to employees who want it. We just don't want it to be required of everyone, as it so often was pre-pandemic.

topspin 5y ago

You quoted part of that without comment on something I think is crucial: "My kids are driving me crazy." I've seen that in practice. Long ago I watched a manager of mine on a lengthy call with his wife discussing the absolute chaos going on at home with the kids, the school, etc. When he hung up he said the most sincere thing I ever heard from him; "Thank God for work." And he had a wife at home to referee it all. If one then asks what might the conditions of a household be where she works as well... Yeah. That explains a lot.

Uhhrrr 5y ago
My data point is that it sucks, distance learning sucked, and my wife just quit her full time job so we could at least get to your manager's state. None of this bears on whether people should be allowed to work remotely, of course.
- topspin 5y ago
  So when the parents indulge the escape of "work" because home is a living nightmare what are we left with to raise the kids? Instragram?
  - drewcoo 5y ago
    I don't know but I think we need a "scared sterile" program for the kids (similar to "scared straight"). I didn't realize there were so many reluctant parents until COVID. I feel society has coerced people into lives so unhappy that they'd rather spend time at the place everyone else is trying to escape than with their loved ones.
    - closeparen 5y ago
      Spreading child-supervision duties around the extended family and community so parents can do other things besides be with their children 24x7 has been a feature of many human cultures for many thousands of years.

pklausler 5y ago

I love working from home... except when I really need to hash out an idea with smart colleagues in front of a whiteboard. I've gotten a lot more "done" over the past 14 months, I think, but I don't think that everything has been as well thought through as it would previously have been.

marcind 5y ago
<(relevant) plug>try our solution to the remote whiteboard problem: https://sharetheboard.com https://sharetheboard.com FYI, since it comes up often: digital annotations will be added in July
- pklausler 5y ago
  That only works if we're all online at the same time. And yes, so does office discussion, but we're more likely to all be in the office at the same time than we are to all be online simultaneously when remote.
  - marcind 5y ago
    Indeed, the assumption is that you're meeting, as you would with any other remote meeting solution (or in-person white boarding session). That said, you can always whiteboard solo, save your digitized content and upload/send it wherever you want. We'll even support image vectorization soon.

mywittyname 5y ago

What ever happened to social clubs? I remember my grandpa was a member of the Knights of Columbus and would frequently go there to socialize / network. I feel like these clubs used to be pretty common: Scouts, Rotary Club, Moose/Elk Lodge, KoC, Veterans of Foreign Wars (which no longer requires members to be former military), and local cultural/historical clubs are pretty prevalent. I've been to a lot of these clubs at the invite of friends, but found that most of the members are 60+. Maybe these clubs need to get out there and advertise themselves to a younger audience, because it's quite clear that many people need the social outlets that these provide. Plus, dancing is fun and people should do more of it.

ASinclair 5y ago
Many of them are affiliated with some organized religion which has been waning for a while now.
prpl 5y ago
They have been in a slow decline, along with unions, middle class, and manufacturing, during the rise of the internet and globalization.
- prpl 5y ago
  Which is to also say that I think these clubs tended to skew towards a white middle-class without a college education. That is a declining demographic.
  - birdyrooster 5y ago
    What about the Insane Juggalo Nation? They seem fairly active still.
- lostcolony 5y ago
  Actually, they've seen an uptick over the past decade. Specifically because of the need the OP implies, and younger people becoming aware of their existence. The elks, for instance, had ~800k members back in 2012ish, and are over a million currently.

jfrunyon 5y ago

But the people who work poorly when others are regularly distracting them with office chit-chat don't deserve respect? I can guess which type of person you are...

lastofthemojito 5y ago
>But the people who work poorly when others are regularly distracting them with office chit-chat don't deserve respect? I certainly don't mean that. Another poster who replied to my original comment compared it to a company that chooses to do pair programming, knowing that not all software developers like pair programming. It'd be fine for some companies to choose to implement pair programming and some not, and for the most part, employees would choose employers that fit their preference. Likewise, I see room for companies that run with being in the office. Not all companies. Not everyone wants that. But if some companies offer remote, some companies are in the office and some offer a mix, I think that's a good thing for the variety of workers out there. There might be some transitional pain if your current employer does something other than your preference, but that's long been the case, and (hopefully) you have other options.

davidbanham 5y ago

I completely respect that for many people the office is a fulcrum of their social life and they don’t want that to change. The remote work revolution actually makes that easier, not harder. We just have to get past the anachronistic idea that the people you share an office with also need to have the same company name written at the top of their paycheques. Invest the money saved on leases and cleaners on coworking memberships for those that want them. They can pick somewhere local with a pleasant commute. They’ll meet and share a space with people from their local area. They’ll be energised by interesting conversations with people from other industries. They can form friendships without the weird distortions of power imbalances caused by their positions in an org chart. If the person at the next desk makes a weird noise when they breathe and always leaves dirty dishes in the sink? Cancel your desk and try a different place. No biggie. Remote work doesn’t have to mean work from home. It’s up to you.