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I get what you're saying but the Trawniki were not collaborators doing what they could to survive. They were sadistic bastards, fully into what they were doing

by the_af 5y ago

I get what you're saying but the Trawniki were not collaborators doing what they could to survive. They were sadistic bastards, fully into what they were doing while at the same time "ideology-less" (beyond a basic anticommunist background). Put it this way: say an alien race enslaves humanity, you're first a starved POW, later given some privileges for good conduct, and later put in charge of some tasks on behalf of the aliens, which you must do in order to keep your privileges. In this thought experiment, do you see betraying your fellow humans? I want to think I wouldn't, but maybe I would. Telling on people, maybe even shooting some? Sure, it's possible. But you must remember the Trawnikis enacted much of the Holocaust. They raped and murdered women and children, and did so of their own free will. Do you see yourself raping a mother and murdering her children for the sake of keeping your privileges with the alien overlords? I don't. The Trawniki embraced this with willingness. They are the worst of the worst, unforgivable human scum. > People in brutal conditions become brutal. I reject this. People with the potential for brutality fully unleash this under brutal conditions. But there are decent people too, people you can break with brutality but which will never descend into it, they won't pillage, torture and rape no matter what you do to them -- and examples of this abound!

seniorThrowaway 5y ago
If you haven't read Ordinary Men (https://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-Men-Reserve-Battalion-Solution/dp/0062303023 https://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-Men-Reserve-Battalion-Soluti...) by Christopher Browning I think you would like it, the book is about who follows appalling orders, why they do, and what does (and doesn't) happen to them if they don't. I think that most of us like to think we would be the moral exception, it offers some mental comfort, but it's far more likely that we won't.
- watwut 5y ago
  The newer introduction from Richard J. Evans ia interesting tho. These were not entirely ordinary men as in representing ordinary Germans. They were righ-wing supporters and their political convictions made them ok with those orders. They perceived Reich as free long after everyone else was persecuted, after synagoges were burned etc.
  - the_af 5y ago
    This is an important distinction! Since not all of us are right-wing supporters, antisemites, or believe in the racial superiority and the innate right to rule of this or that race, this means it's not true that all of us would happily engage in rape and ethnic cleansing just because we're told by some authority figure that it's right to do so.
- the_af 5y ago
  I'm familiar with Ordinary Men and also with Hitler's Willing Executioners and I think they prove my point. > what does (and doesn't) happen to them if they don't This is key. What happens if they didn't follow orders? It turns out that... pretty much nothing. You could get away with not following orders. So those who did anyway, murdered, tortured and raped, are monsters in my eyes. Their lives weren't even in immediate danger! > I think that most of us like to think we would be the moral exception, it offers some mental comfort, but it's far more likely that we won't. If you think you would break down and commit rape, torture and murder, then I'm sorry for you. I'm nothing like you then, and most decent people aren't either. I'm not naive: I know there's a lot of behavior people will engage in under extreme conditions -- I can admit cannibalism, robbery, violence and lots of things unacceptable in normal society -- but there IS a line, and torture and rape are way beyond that line. I'm willing to admit under exceptional duress I'd betray my country and my friends. I can see myself being forced to shoot another human being "or else". What I cannot absolutely accept from you or anybody else is to claim "well, if I'm threatened with torture or death then I can break and be willing to rape women and crush their babies". I'm sorry but I cannot, and if you think you would, I hope I never meet you in person: you terrify me. If it comes to a point where someone tells me "unless you rape this child, I'll do the same to your children" then I might as well accept we're all doomed and it's beyond anything I can do. I won't commit rape, period. Note we're discussing the Trawniki men in this context. Read about what they did before claiming everyone in their position would do the same. These were really scum, the worst of the worst.
  - seniorThrowaway 5y ago
    >If you think you would break down and commit rape, torture and murder, then I'm sorry for you. I'm nothing like you then, and most decent people aren't either. I'm not talking about that level, I'm talking about: >I can see myself being forced to shoot another human being "or else" I was speaking in the context of the reservists described in Ordinary Men in this comment, not the Trawnikis, though I still don't agree with your blanket characterization of them. Please provide the references you speak of about them being the worst of the worst. Their wikipedia article claims with references that approximately 1000 out of 5000 ran off during operations, that hardly seems like the actions of a bunch of willing sadists frothing at the mouth to kill.
watwut 5y ago
As for first paragraph, the two are in no way in opposition. One can be both at the same time. And joining these units in the first place was one of survival tactic. Then you become part. Also, literally all armies raped, some more then others. Rape is horrible, but it went on in wars a lot. Germans raped, some units really very much a lot. Russian soldiers raped. Both on the way to Germany and then a lot inside Germany. American soldiers raped (less then Germans and Russians). You are bringing it up and it is horrible, but it was not unique to these units at all. Second, I have no idea how I would acted. I think I would die, because I am sickly in general. Which absolve me of moral choices I guess.No one of us knows how he would really act in such situation. Ressentment and hunger and genrally violence make people ok with things they are not normally. Go even read that comic about Elan school someone posted on HN. Exact same dynamic in nutshel. Third, the more I read about history, prisons, wars, genocides and cults and such, the more I became convinced of this. When you create brutal environment, people in it will become brutal gradually. Some more then others and yet others will be victims. But that is what happens every single time.
- the_af 5y ago
  I'm sorry, I reject the idea that there's a set of brutal conditions that would have led me to rape, and murder even children in cold blood like the Trawniki did. The scale and horror that Nazism and their willing lackeys inflicted upon the (modern) world is terrifying. No, under no set of conditions I would have behaved like the Trawniki. You say that every army raped, and this is true, but > You are bringing it up and it is horrible, but it was not unique to these units at all. I'm sorry, but again read what the Trawniki did and tell me it's of the same order of magnitude than what other armies "regularly" did. You can't, because it's not. Nazism enabled them, and these men, out of their own free will, went above and beyond the "call of duty", embraced it and rejoiced in this monstrous behavior. In many cases they weren't frontline units -- so their savagery upon civilians cannot be excused by saying "they were numbed and desperate by combat, and their prisoners suffered because of it" -- they conducted reprisals on civilians and served as guards in extermination camps, and were a key part of the Holocaust. They were reasonably well fed and clothed, and they chose to murder women and children. What's their excuse then? I've read a lot about history, and know of men and women that perished because they refused to behave like savages, to know this is not the only possible course of action. The Trawniki were really scum and there's no excuse for what they did.

by the_af 5y ago

seniorThrowaway 5y ago

If you haven't read Ordinary Men (https://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-Men-Reserve-Battalion-Solution/dp/0062303023 https://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-Men-Reserve-Battalion-Soluti...) by Christopher Browning I think you would like it, the book is about who follows appalling orders, why they do, and what does (and doesn't) happen to them if they don't. I think that most of us like to think we would be the moral exception, it offers some mental comfort, but it's far more likely that we won't.

watwut 5y ago
The newer introduction from Richard J. Evans ia interesting tho. These were not entirely ordinary men as in representing ordinary Germans. They were righ-wing supporters and their political convictions made them ok with those orders. They perceived Reich as free long after everyone else was persecuted, after synagoges were burned etc.
- the_af 5y ago
  This is an important distinction! Since not all of us are right-wing supporters, antisemites, or believe in the racial superiority and the innate right to rule of this or that race, this means it's not true that all of us would happily engage in rape and ethnic cleansing just because we're told by some authority figure that it's right to do so.
the_af 5y ago
I'm familiar with Ordinary Men and also with Hitler's Willing Executioners and I think they prove my point. > what does (and doesn't) happen to them if they don't This is key. What happens if they didn't follow orders? It turns out that... pretty much nothing. You could get away with not following orders. So those who did anyway, murdered, tortured and raped, are monsters in my eyes. Their lives weren't even in immediate danger! > I think that most of us like to think we would be the moral exception, it offers some mental comfort, but it's far more likely that we won't. If you think you would break down and commit rape, torture and murder, then I'm sorry for you. I'm nothing like you then, and most decent people aren't either. I'm not naive: I know there's a lot of behavior people will engage in under extreme conditions -- I can admit cannibalism, robbery, violence and lots of things unacceptable in normal society -- but there IS a line, and torture and rape are way beyond that line. I'm willing to admit under exceptional duress I'd betray my country and my friends. I can see myself being forced to shoot another human being "or else". What I cannot absolutely accept from you or anybody else is to claim "well, if I'm threatened with torture or death then I can break and be willing to rape women and crush their babies". I'm sorry but I cannot, and if you think you would, I hope I never meet you in person: you terrify me. If it comes to a point where someone tells me "unless you rape this child, I'll do the same to your children" then I might as well accept we're all doomed and it's beyond anything I can do. I won't commit rape, period. Note we're discussing the Trawniki men in this context. Read about what they did before claiming everyone in their position would do the same. These were really scum, the worst of the worst.
- seniorThrowaway 5y ago
  >If you think you would break down and commit rape, torture and murder, then I'm sorry for you. I'm nothing like you then, and most decent people aren't either. I'm not talking about that level, I'm talking about: >I can see myself being forced to shoot another human being "or else" I was speaking in the context of the reservists described in Ordinary Men in this comment, not the Trawnikis, though I still don't agree with your blanket characterization of them. Please provide the references you speak of about them being the worst of the worst. Their wikipedia article claims with references that approximately 1000 out of 5000 ran off during operations, that hardly seems like the actions of a bunch of willing sadists frothing at the mouth to kill.

watwut 5y ago

As for first paragraph, the two are in no way in opposition. One can be both at the same time. And joining these units in the first place was one of survival tactic. Then you become part. Also, literally all armies raped, some more then others. Rape is horrible, but it went on in wars a lot. Germans raped, some units really very much a lot. Russian soldiers raped. Both on the way to Germany and then a lot inside Germany. American soldiers raped (less then Germans and Russians). You are bringing it up and it is horrible, but it was not unique to these units at all. Second, I have no idea how I would acted. I think I would die, because I am sickly in general. Which absolve me of moral choices I guess.No one of us knows how he would really act in such situation. Ressentment and hunger and genrally violence make people ok with things they are not normally. Go even read that comic about Elan school someone posted on HN. Exact same dynamic in nutshel. Third, the more I read about history, prisons, wars, genocides and cults and such, the more I became convinced of this. When you create brutal environment, people in it will become brutal gradually. Some more then others and yet others will be victims. But that is what happens every single time.

the_af 5y ago
I'm sorry, I reject the idea that there's a set of brutal conditions that would have led me to rape, and murder even children in cold blood like the Trawniki did. The scale and horror that Nazism and their willing lackeys inflicted upon the (modern) world is terrifying. No, under no set of conditions I would have behaved like the Trawniki. You say that every army raped, and this is true, but > You are bringing it up and it is horrible, but it was not unique to these units at all. I'm sorry, but again read what the Trawniki did and tell me it's of the same order of magnitude than what other armies "regularly" did. You can't, because it's not. Nazism enabled them, and these men, out of their own free will, went above and beyond the "call of duty", embraced it and rejoiced in this monstrous behavior. In many cases they weren't frontline units -- so their savagery upon civilians cannot be excused by saying "they were numbed and desperate by combat, and their prisoners suffered because of it" -- they conducted reprisals on civilians and served as guards in extermination camps, and were a key part of the Holocaust. They were reasonably well fed and clothed, and they chose to murder women and children. What's their excuse then? I've read a lot about history, and know of men and women that perished because they refused to behave like savages, to know this is not the only possible course of action. The Trawniki were really scum and there's no excuse for what they did.