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There were generally three "tiers" at the camps. The SS were at the top, in command. At most camps there were very few of them, a couple of dozen. Below them

There were generally three "tiers" at the camps. The SS were at the top, in command. At most camps there were very few of them, a couple of dozen. Below them were the Trawnikis/Hiwis, the soviet "helpers" who largely consisted of POW's who "volunteered" for guard duty. In German they held the title of Wachmann, watchman. They made up the majority of the guards. Then there were the prisoner workers and leaders, the kapos and sonderkommandos. They did most of the actual work of the camps.

the_af 5y ago
The Trawnikis are revolting, I just cannot wrap my head around their existence. Yes, they were anticommunist so that was one reason to help the Nazis, but beyond that, they weren't ideological, they just were brutal and genocidal -- above and beyond mere survival, they committed the worst atrocities without any ideological allegiance to Hitler, I guess they just enjoyed their work and were willing to do anything -- murder, torture and rape -- in exchange for warm clothes, gear and food, and the feeling of importance you must get when you can freely terrorize other people. I'm not naive, I understand a man can break and tell on his friends under duress. But to commit actual rape and murder without a second thought, that makes you the worst of the worst, a stain on the planet.
- seniorThrowaway 5y ago
  My understanding is that a lot of the Trawnikis were simply trying to stay alive, at least the ones who started as POW's at the time they volunteered for the training. The vast majority of Soviet POW's in Wehrmacht hands were starved to death which is something that doesn't get talked about enough in my opinion - it absolutely shreds any "clean Wehrmacht" revisionist nonsense. I tend to view collaborators as requiring less explanation in general, did some jump on the opportunity to unleash their inner sadist? Undoubtedly, but I think most were simply trying to survive the task of navigating the conflict between two brutal regimes and I believe their motivations and reasoning were individual and covered a whole spectrum of rationale. The people I think require the most explanation are the highly educated, well off volunteers of organizations like the SS and NKVD. People who had a choice and chose the secret police.
  - watwut 5y ago
    > The people I think require the most explanation are the highly educated, well off volunteers of organizations like the SS and NKVD. People who had a choice and chose the secret police. They believed they are doing the right thing or simply the job. They were convinced they are the good ones. Tho, these two are massively different organizations. SS were not secret police, they were basically army doing a lot of actual combat. Gestapo would be closer equivalent of NKVD.
    - seniorThrowaway 5y ago
      If you remove the Waffen SS I think the comparison holds, both Allgemeine SS and NKVD were overarching internal security / police type organizations. Like a lot of Nazi organizations the SS had somewhat nebulous duty boundaries that overlapped some other groups and evolved over time.
      - the_af 5y ago
        There were also NKVD combat units, most famously one which did a lot of heavy fighting in Stalingrad. (Actual desperate fighting against Germans, not the scene from the awful "Enemy at the Gates" where they fire on retreating Soviet troops -- that's mostly made up for the movie).
    - flohofwoe 5y ago
      > they were basically army doing a lot of actual combat This was mainly the Waffen-SS which was only built up during the war, the SS as a whole was responsible for the worst atrocities in the occupied areas and within Germany (for instance running the extermination camps). (also, Himmler was both head of the SS and Gestapo by 1934, I guess there wasn't much of a distinction between the two organizations)
      - watwut 5y ago
        SS was responsible for camps and extermination, but they were also elite combat body. They were given responsibility for camps because they were supposed to be better soldiers then army itself. SS were also willing to take more risk and more losses then army would normally do. Mostly because they were eager to prove themselves uber soldiers they believed themselves to be. The army itself had ethnic cleansing as one of the goals too. I mention this mostly because after war there was tendency to blame everything on SSand create myth of "clean" Wehrmacht. Because that felt better to Germans. Gestapo was literally professional police. They were people who did criminal inveatigations prior and repurposed many of the same tactic. That is massive difference.
- watwut 5y ago
  People in brutal conditions become brutal. That part is fairly universal. And it is pretty easy to make them even more brutal by right training. All you have to do is to reward aggression and to redirect their resentment toward weaker victim. Moreover, people who had pre-existing tendency to be brutal are overrepresented in units like that. Second, antisemitism itself is not nazi invention. It was pre-existing in Eastern Europe, Ukraine and so on. Third, "might is right" was strong aspect of nazi ideology where stronger have no responsibility toward weaker. So was "empathy is feminine weakness" and "manly men suppress these emotions and are brutal". Once you indoctrinated people into this, it does not matter whether they are Germans or Ukranians, they are more likely to be ok with committing atrocities. > in exchange for warm clothes, gear and food, and the feeling of importance you must get when you can freely terrorize other people It also needs to be acknowledged that lack of warm clothes means death and so does lack of food. We are not talking here about slight discomfort due to somewhat malnutrition. We are talking about no food full stop. Neither of those will make you nicer well empathetic person. Instead, they will make you focus on survival and loose whatever empathy you was previously capable of.
  - the_af 5y ago
    I get what you're saying but the Trawniki were not collaborators doing what they could to survive. They were sadistic bastards, fully into what they were doing while at the same time "ideology-less" (beyond a basic anticommunist background). Put it this way: say an alien race enslaves humanity, you're first a starved POW, later given some privileges for good conduct, and later put in charge of some tasks on behalf of the aliens, which you must do in order to keep your privileges. In this thought experiment, do you see betraying your fellow humans? I want to think I wouldn't, but maybe I would. Telling on people, maybe even shooting some? Sure, it's possible. But you must remember the Trawnikis enacted much of the Holocaust. They raped and murdered women and children, and did so of their own free will. Do you see yourself raping a mother and murdering her children for the sake of keeping your privileges with the alien overlords? I don't. The Trawniki embraced this with willingness. They are the worst of the worst, unforgivable human scum. > People in brutal conditions become brutal. I reject this. People with the potential for brutality fully unleash this under brutal conditions. But there are decent people too, people you can break with brutality but which will never descend into it, they won't pillage, torture and rape no matter what you do to them -- and examples of this abound!

the_af 5y ago

The Trawnikis are revolting, I just cannot wrap my head around their existence. Yes, they were anticommunist so that was one reason to help the Nazis, but beyond that, they weren't ideological, they just were brutal and genocidal -- above and beyond mere survival, they committed the worst atrocities without any ideological allegiance to Hitler, I guess they just enjoyed their work and were willing to do anything -- murder, torture and rape -- in exchange for warm clothes, gear and food, and the feeling of importance you must get when you can freely terrorize other people. I'm not naive, I understand a man can break and tell on his friends under duress. But to commit actual rape and murder without a second thought, that makes you the worst of the worst, a stain on the planet.

seniorThrowaway 5y ago
My understanding is that a lot of the Trawnikis were simply trying to stay alive, at least the ones who started as POW's at the time they volunteered for the training. The vast majority of Soviet POW's in Wehrmacht hands were starved to death which is something that doesn't get talked about enough in my opinion - it absolutely shreds any "clean Wehrmacht" revisionist nonsense. I tend to view collaborators as requiring less explanation in general, did some jump on the opportunity to unleash their inner sadist? Undoubtedly, but I think most were simply trying to survive the task of navigating the conflict between two brutal regimes and I believe their motivations and reasoning were individual and covered a whole spectrum of rationale. The people I think require the most explanation are the highly educated, well off volunteers of organizations like the SS and NKVD. People who had a choice and chose the secret police.
- watwut 5y ago
  > The people I think require the most explanation are the highly educated, well off volunteers of organizations like the SS and NKVD. People who had a choice and chose the secret police. They believed they are doing the right thing or simply the job. They were convinced they are the good ones. Tho, these two are massively different organizations. SS were not secret police, they were basically army doing a lot of actual combat. Gestapo would be closer equivalent of NKVD.
  - seniorThrowaway 5y ago
    If you remove the Waffen SS I think the comparison holds, both Allgemeine SS and NKVD were overarching internal security / police type organizations. Like a lot of Nazi organizations the SS had somewhat nebulous duty boundaries that overlapped some other groups and evolved over time.
    - the_af 5y ago
      There were also NKVD combat units, most famously one which did a lot of heavy fighting in Stalingrad. (Actual desperate fighting against Germans, not the scene from the awful "Enemy at the Gates" where they fire on retreating Soviet troops -- that's mostly made up for the movie).
  - flohofwoe 5y ago
    > they were basically army doing a lot of actual combat This was mainly the Waffen-SS which was only built up during the war, the SS as a whole was responsible for the worst atrocities in the occupied areas and within Germany (for instance running the extermination camps). (also, Himmler was both head of the SS and Gestapo by 1934, I guess there wasn't much of a distinction between the two organizations)
    - watwut 5y ago
      SS was responsible for camps and extermination, but they were also elite combat body. They were given responsibility for camps because they were supposed to be better soldiers then army itself. SS were also willing to take more risk and more losses then army would normally do. Mostly because they were eager to prove themselves uber soldiers they believed themselves to be. The army itself had ethnic cleansing as one of the goals too. I mention this mostly because after war there was tendency to blame everything on SSand create myth of "clean" Wehrmacht. Because that felt better to Germans. Gestapo was literally professional police. They were people who did criminal inveatigations prior and repurposed many of the same tactic. That is massive difference.
watwut 5y ago
People in brutal conditions become brutal. That part is fairly universal. And it is pretty easy to make them even more brutal by right training. All you have to do is to reward aggression and to redirect their resentment toward weaker victim. Moreover, people who had pre-existing tendency to be brutal are overrepresented in units like that. Second, antisemitism itself is not nazi invention. It was pre-existing in Eastern Europe, Ukraine and so on. Third, "might is right" was strong aspect of nazi ideology where stronger have no responsibility toward weaker. So was "empathy is feminine weakness" and "manly men suppress these emotions and are brutal". Once you indoctrinated people into this, it does not matter whether they are Germans or Ukranians, they are more likely to be ok with committing atrocities. > in exchange for warm clothes, gear and food, and the feeling of importance you must get when you can freely terrorize other people It also needs to be acknowledged that lack of warm clothes means death and so does lack of food. We are not talking here about slight discomfort due to somewhat malnutrition. We are talking about no food full stop. Neither of those will make you nicer well empathetic person. Instead, they will make you focus on survival and loose whatever empathy you was previously capable of.
- the_af 5y ago
  I get what you're saying but the Trawniki were not collaborators doing what they could to survive. They were sadistic bastards, fully into what they were doing while at the same time "ideology-less" (beyond a basic anticommunist background). Put it this way: say an alien race enslaves humanity, you're first a starved POW, later given some privileges for good conduct, and later put in charge of some tasks on behalf of the aliens, which you must do in order to keep your privileges. In this thought experiment, do you see betraying your fellow humans? I want to think I wouldn't, but maybe I would. Telling on people, maybe even shooting some? Sure, it's possible. But you must remember the Trawnikis enacted much of the Holocaust. They raped and murdered women and children, and did so of their own free will. Do you see yourself raping a mother and murdering her children for the sake of keeping your privileges with the alien overlords? I don't. The Trawniki embraced this with willingness. They are the worst of the worst, unforgivable human scum. > People in brutal conditions become brutal. I reject this. People with the potential for brutality fully unleash this under brutal conditions. But there are decent people too, people you can break with brutality but which will never descend into it, they won't pillage, torture and rape no matter what you do to them -- and examples of this abound!