4 ms·

Since I can't reply to the OP post which was quite reasonable but has been inexplicably flagged because we're apparently not mature enough to have a discussion

Since I can't reply to the OP post which was quite reasonable but has been inexplicably flagged because we're apparently not mature enough to have a discussion about polarizing topics in good faith, I'm going to respond here. OP post: "In the U.S. we have an emerging cultural convention that someone who believes that they are a different gender should be treated as if they were that gender. I believe that is generally a positive thing, though it can be taken too far with biological males competing as females, and the removal of true female-only spaces. Should we do the same with people who have the puppy pregnancy delusion? Accept their viewpoint and wish them luck, rather than attempting to dissuade them? I suppose in both situations it should be case by case, offering help where the psychological stresses become unmanageable." I think its not hard to allow people to identify as whatever gender they desire. The difficult part is affording gender specific privileges. How "far" does a trans person have to go to be able to acquire these? (Bathrooms, sports inclusion, etc). Speaking in terms of changes they are willing to undergo (Srs, hormone replacement, presenting, etc)

ashleyn 5y ago
Being trans also isn't a "delusion". A trans person doesn't believe they literally have the same body as the opposite sex, although admittedly the bumper sticker slogans surrounding this issue ("trans women are women") may create confusion. Trans people are acutely aware of their bodies - they just don't find comfort or pleasure in them. Since changing their bodies to the maximum current medical extent can be done safely and effectively, and this often yields good results, this is the standard of treatment. "Trans women are women" doesn't acknowledge that the issue is a delusion, it is more of a rhetorical device that redefines what "woman" even is (similar to how "marriage" was redefined from its historical definition to be inclusive of gay people). Subtly, someone who _did_ believe they had a natal opposite sex body would _not_ be classified as trans, but genuinely affected by a delusional disorder. Perhaps this would be the prime differentiator between the two. Comparing it to "puppy pregnancy delusion" is like comparing apples and oranges and demonstrates that OP may have been confused by political rhetoric surrounding the issue.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  > Since changing their bodies to the maximum current medical extent can be done safely and effectively, and this often yields good results Basically true for middle-aged adults, but this becomes less and less true as age of intervention decreases. At the lowest extreme in age, there are lots of kids and teenagers who are simply puzzled by the whole notion of gender roles, or the prospective changes of puberty, and will happily tell you that they kinda-sorta don't feel like they belong in their gender, especially if so influenced by unscrupulous trans-activists. One might think it obvious that pursuing transition in these cases is ethically unconscionable given that the vast majority of those kids will be totally fine as cis adults, but this is a surprisingly controversial POV in the 2020s. BTW, it's entirely possible to "not find comfort or pleasure" in an arbitrary part of one's body that has nothing to do with primary/secondary sex characteristics, such as one's nose. This is known as body dysmorphic disorder and/or body integrity identity disorder. It tends to be a lot less politicized than gender-identity linked disorders/dysphorias, and the standards of treatment are correspondingly more inclined to watchful waiting.
  - ashleyn 5y ago
    > At the lowest extreme in age, there are lots of kids and teenagers who are simply puzzled by the whole notion of gender roles, or the prospective changes of puberty, and will happily tell you that they kinda-sorta don't feel like they belong in their gender, especially if so influenced by unscrupolous trans-activists. While it is true that other maladies of adolescence can be miscategorised as gender dysphoria, it's also well-understood that gender dysphoria is something that is not absent in children and adolescents. When genuinely dysphoria, this is something that is strongly evidenced to occur absent any external influence. A simple example here is older adults reporting dysphoria extending back to childhood, in eras where the existence of the condition was simply unspeakable. > One might think it obvious that pursuing transition in these cases is ethically unconscionable given that the vast majority of those kids will be totally fine afterwards, but this is a surprisingly controversial POV in the 2010s. Because one must be careful not to be biased against inaction or toward natural design. The consequences for ignoring the issue in children can be as devastating as inappropriately treating the issue. Diagnosis here can admittedly be a serious challenge but thankfully there are options in-between "ignoring it" and "full permanent transition", which is why my personal opinion would lean toward reserving anything permanent for the most serious cases (i.e. ones involving self-harm), and allowing gender-dysphoric children to "socially" transition, which amounts to little more than allowing them to pick out their own easily-reversible name and clothing style.
Chris2048 5y ago
> we're apparently not mature enough to have a discussion It needn't be people participating in the discussion that are flagging or downvoting things. It's basically censorship from an offended 3rd party. > How "far" does a trans person have to go In discussion like these I ask "How willing/confident are [they] in their argument that they are willing to defend it?". The censorship of this thread aside, I often find the prime argument of these things is a tactic of dismissal; or censorship of the opposition. A good counterpoint is labelled offensive, and on that basis buried. The obvious counterpoints are: Jessica Yaniv, a toxic transwoman who pretty blatantly abuses the good-faith privileges enjoyed by many trans-people; specifically: labelling beauticians who refused to wax her testicles as transphobic. Karen White, a violent trans-woman, who while legally male AND convicted paedophile and multiple-rapist, was put in a female prison where they managed to assault/rape female inmates. If you can't answer to these (possibly-)worst case scenarios, then your worldview is missing something. EDIT: downvotes, yes no replies. says it all.
- dang 5y ago
  Would you please stop posting flamewar comments and please drop the tedious meta complaints about downvotes and whatnot? None of that is helping. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    I didn't raise the topic, I consider the comments I posted as perfectly reasonable, I have not posted anything I would consider off-topic to the original post, nor have I posted "flamebait". Nor do I find anything I posted "tedious". If that's not enough, why not explicitly expand the guidelines (which are v. subjective), rather than leave it open to ad-hoc policing? When you describe my comments as "flamebait" you are making a personal, non-subjective judgement, and are thereby justifying the very tactical downvotes I am complaining about. Now the very people flagging these questions will continue, thinking "even the mod agrees with me". Not only are you not helping, you are contributing to that. Let me ask you this: have you ever warned (or publicly so) someone for flagging a perfectly reasonable comment? Because that's flamebait. That's what pisses people off. It's in your power as mod to curb that. Why not reverse these[0] malicious flaggings, instead of warn people like me for complaining about it? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27578904 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27578904

ashleyn 5y ago

Being trans also isn't a "delusion". A trans person doesn't believe they literally have the same body as the opposite sex, although admittedly the bumper sticker slogans surrounding this issue ("trans women are women") may create confusion. Trans people are acutely aware of their bodies - they just don't find comfort or pleasure in them. Since changing their bodies to the maximum current medical extent can be done safely and effectively, and this often yields good results, this is the standard of treatment. "Trans women are women" doesn't acknowledge that the issue is a delusion, it is more of a rhetorical device that redefines what "woman" even is (similar to how "marriage" was redefined from its historical definition to be inclusive of gay people). Subtly, someone who _did_ believe they had a natal opposite sex body would _not_ be classified as trans, but genuinely affected by a delusional disorder. Perhaps this would be the prime differentiator between the two. Comparing it to "puppy pregnancy delusion" is like comparing apples and oranges and demonstrates that OP may have been confused by political rhetoric surrounding the issue.

zozbot234 5y ago
> Since changing their bodies to the maximum current medical extent can be done safely and effectively, and this often yields good results Basically true for middle-aged adults, but this becomes less and less true as age of intervention decreases. At the lowest extreme in age, there are lots of kids and teenagers who are simply puzzled by the whole notion of gender roles, or the prospective changes of puberty, and will happily tell you that they kinda-sorta don't feel like they belong in their gender, especially if so influenced by unscrupulous trans-activists. One might think it obvious that pursuing transition in these cases is ethically unconscionable given that the vast majority of those kids will be totally fine as cis adults, but this is a surprisingly controversial POV in the 2020s. BTW, it's entirely possible to "not find comfort or pleasure" in an arbitrary part of one's body that has nothing to do with primary/secondary sex characteristics, such as one's nose. This is known as body dysmorphic disorder and/or body integrity identity disorder. It tends to be a lot less politicized than gender-identity linked disorders/dysphorias, and the standards of treatment are correspondingly more inclined to watchful waiting.
- ashleyn 5y ago
  > At the lowest extreme in age, there are lots of kids and teenagers who are simply puzzled by the whole notion of gender roles, or the prospective changes of puberty, and will happily tell you that they kinda-sorta don't feel like they belong in their gender, especially if so influenced by unscrupolous trans-activists. While it is true that other maladies of adolescence can be miscategorised as gender dysphoria, it's also well-understood that gender dysphoria is something that is not absent in children and adolescents. When genuinely dysphoria, this is something that is strongly evidenced to occur absent any external influence. A simple example here is older adults reporting dysphoria extending back to childhood, in eras where the existence of the condition was simply unspeakable. > One might think it obvious that pursuing transition in these cases is ethically unconscionable given that the vast majority of those kids will be totally fine afterwards, but this is a surprisingly controversial POV in the 2010s. Because one must be careful not to be biased against inaction or toward natural design. The consequences for ignoring the issue in children can be as devastating as inappropriately treating the issue. Diagnosis here can admittedly be a serious challenge but thankfully there are options in-between "ignoring it" and "full permanent transition", which is why my personal opinion would lean toward reserving anything permanent for the most serious cases (i.e. ones involving self-harm), and allowing gender-dysphoric children to "socially" transition, which amounts to little more than allowing them to pick out their own easily-reversible name and clothing style.

Chris2048 5y ago

> we're apparently not mature enough to have a discussion It needn't be people participating in the discussion that are flagging or downvoting things. It's basically censorship from an offended 3rd party. > How "far" does a trans person have to go In discussion like these I ask "How willing/confident are [they] in their argument that they are willing to defend it?". The censorship of this thread aside, I often find the prime argument of these things is a tactic of dismissal; or censorship of the opposition. A good counterpoint is labelled offensive, and on that basis buried. The obvious counterpoints are: Jessica Yaniv, a toxic transwoman who pretty blatantly abuses the good-faith privileges enjoyed by many trans-people; specifically: labelling beauticians who refused to wax her testicles as transphobic. Karen White, a violent trans-woman, who while legally male AND convicted paedophile and multiple-rapist, was put in a female prison where they managed to assault/rape female inmates. If you can't answer to these (possibly-)worst case scenarios, then your worldview is missing something. EDIT: downvotes, yes no replies. says it all.

dang 5y ago
Would you please stop posting flamewar comments and please drop the tedious meta complaints about downvotes and whatnot? None of that is helping. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- Chris2048 5y ago
  I didn't raise the topic, I consider the comments I posted as perfectly reasonable, I have not posted anything I would consider off-topic to the original post, nor have I posted "flamebait". Nor do I find anything I posted "tedious". If that's not enough, why not explicitly expand the guidelines (which are v. subjective), rather than leave it open to ad-hoc policing? When you describe my comments as "flamebait" you are making a personal, non-subjective judgement, and are thereby justifying the very tactical downvotes I am complaining about. Now the very people flagging these questions will continue, thinking "even the mod agrees with me". Not only are you not helping, you are contributing to that. Let me ask you this: have you ever warned (or publicly so) someone for flagging a perfectly reasonable comment? Because that's flamebait. That's what pisses people off. It's in your power as mod to curb that. Why not reverse these[0] malicious flaggings, instead of warn people like me for complaining about it? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27578904 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27578904