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I’m currently half way through life and fate (just finished the famous chapter where Liss has a conversation with Mostovskoi on the similarities between the USS

I’m currently half way through life and fate (just finished the famous chapter where Liss has a conversation with Mostovskoi on the similarities between the USSR and Nazi germany). It’s truly an incredible book. In the first chapters, he details the inner working of nazi camps, I did not know about Kapos[1], absolutely horrifying. Long read, but definitely check it out if a War and Peace about WWII is something that sounds interesting to you!! [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo

trutannus 5y ago
Kapos were not always prisoners, sometimes the term was applied to POW camp guards. There were also "men of confidence", who were always POWs. Their role was to basically act as ambassador for the guards to the prisoners. There were cases where the MoC had to pick between outing folks attempting to escape, or allow their entire unit to be killed in retaliation. This podcast episode is an interesting story about an escape in WWII from an illegal labor camp (Geneva Convention prohibits slave labor for PoWs) by several American POWs. Covers a lot about the way the camps worked too: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3MnBvZGNhc3QubGlic3luLmNvbS9yc3M/episode/MTM0OWE2MzYtZDQ5Zi00ZWU2LTkyZGQtNDg1MTkxZTg5ODA0?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwi49P2V9qjxAhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAQ https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3MnBvZGNhc3QubGl...
- seniorThrowaway 5y ago
  There were generally three "tiers" at the camps. The SS were at the top, in command. At most camps there were very few of them, a couple of dozen. Below them were the Trawnikis/Hiwis, the soviet "helpers" who largely consisted of POW's who "volunteered" for guard duty. In German they held the title of Wachmann, watchman. They made up the majority of the guards. Then there were the prisoner workers and leaders, the kapos and sonderkommandos. They did most of the actual work of the camps.
  - the_af 5y ago
    The Trawnikis are revolting, I just cannot wrap my head around their existence. Yes, they were anticommunist so that was one reason to help the Nazis, but beyond that, they weren't ideological, they just were brutal and genocidal -- above and beyond mere survival, they committed the worst atrocities without any ideological allegiance to Hitler, I guess they just enjoyed their work and were willing to do anything -- murder, torture and rape -- in exchange for warm clothes, gear and food, and the feeling of importance you must get when you can freely terrorize other people. I'm not naive, I understand a man can break and tell on his friends under duress. But to commit actual rape and murder without a second thought, that makes you the worst of the worst, a stain on the planet.
    - seniorThrowaway 5y ago
      My understanding is that a lot of the Trawnikis were simply trying to stay alive, at least the ones who started as POW's at the time they volunteered for the training. The vast majority of Soviet POW's in Wehrmacht hands were starved to death which is something that doesn't get talked about enough in my opinion - it absolutely shreds any "clean Wehrmacht" revisionist nonsense. I tend to view collaborators as requiring less explanation in general, did some jump on the opportunity to unleash their inner sadist? Undoubtedly, but I think most were simply trying to survive the task of navigating the conflict between two brutal regimes and I believe their motivations and reasoning were individual and covered a whole spectrum of rationale. The people I think require the most explanation are the highly educated, well off volunteers of organizations like the SS and NKVD. People who had a choice and chose the secret police.
      - watwut 5y ago
        > The people I think require the most explanation are the highly educated, well off volunteers of organizations like the SS and NKVD. People who had a choice and chose the secret police. They believed they are doing the right thing or simply the job. They were convinced they are the good ones. Tho, these two are massively different organizations. SS were not secret police, they were basically army doing a lot of actual combat. Gestapo would be closer equivalent of NKVD.
borroka 5y ago
Kapo by Gillo Pontecorvo is a must see
manu3000 5y ago
Victor Frankl discusses the psychological makeup of kapos in "Man's Search for Meaning"

trutannus 5y ago

Kapos were not always prisoners, sometimes the term was applied to POW camp guards. There were also "men of confidence", who were always POWs. Their role was to basically act as ambassador for the guards to the prisoners. There were cases where the MoC had to pick between outing folks attempting to escape, or allow their entire unit to be killed in retaliation. This podcast episode is an interesting story about an escape in WWII from an illegal labor camp (Geneva Convention prohibits slave labor for PoWs) by several American POWs. Covers a lot about the way the camps worked too: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3MnBvZGNhc3QubGlic3luLmNvbS9yc3M/episode/MTM0OWE2MzYtZDQ5Zi00ZWU2LTkyZGQtNDg1MTkxZTg5ODA0?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwi49P2V9qjxAhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAQ https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3MnBvZGNhc3QubGl...

seniorThrowaway 5y ago
There were generally three "tiers" at the camps. The SS were at the top, in command. At most camps there were very few of them, a couple of dozen. Below them were the Trawnikis/Hiwis, the soviet "helpers" who largely consisted of POW's who "volunteered" for guard duty. In German they held the title of Wachmann, watchman. They made up the majority of the guards. Then there were the prisoner workers and leaders, the kapos and sonderkommandos. They did most of the actual work of the camps.
- the_af 5y ago
  The Trawnikis are revolting, I just cannot wrap my head around their existence. Yes, they were anticommunist so that was one reason to help the Nazis, but beyond that, they weren't ideological, they just were brutal and genocidal -- above and beyond mere survival, they committed the worst atrocities without any ideological allegiance to Hitler, I guess they just enjoyed their work and were willing to do anything -- murder, torture and rape -- in exchange for warm clothes, gear and food, and the feeling of importance you must get when you can freely terrorize other people. I'm not naive, I understand a man can break and tell on his friends under duress. But to commit actual rape and murder without a second thought, that makes you the worst of the worst, a stain on the planet.
  - seniorThrowaway 5y ago
    My understanding is that a lot of the Trawnikis were simply trying to stay alive, at least the ones who started as POW's at the time they volunteered for the training. The vast majority of Soviet POW's in Wehrmacht hands were starved to death which is something that doesn't get talked about enough in my opinion - it absolutely shreds any "clean Wehrmacht" revisionist nonsense. I tend to view collaborators as requiring less explanation in general, did some jump on the opportunity to unleash their inner sadist? Undoubtedly, but I think most were simply trying to survive the task of navigating the conflict between two brutal regimes and I believe their motivations and reasoning were individual and covered a whole spectrum of rationale. The people I think require the most explanation are the highly educated, well off volunteers of organizations like the SS and NKVD. People who had a choice and chose the secret police.
    - watwut 5y ago
      > The people I think require the most explanation are the highly educated, well off volunteers of organizations like the SS and NKVD. People who had a choice and chose the secret police. They believed they are doing the right thing or simply the job. They were convinced they are the good ones. Tho, these two are massively different organizations. SS were not secret police, they were basically army doing a lot of actual combat. Gestapo would be closer equivalent of NKVD.

borroka 5y ago

Kapo by Gillo Pontecorvo is a must see

manu3000 5y ago

Victor Frankl discusses the psychological makeup of kapos in "Man's Search for Meaning"