7 ms·

When tipping and smiling are both expected at work, so is sexual harassment

20 points by rustoo 5y ago

falsaberN1 5y ago
Something about this feels off to me. So does this mean expecting service with a smile is a bad thing? In my country there's no expectation of either a tip nor expectation of service with a smile, so this article kind of confuses me a bit. And from what I've witnessed neither of those assumptions out of the equation stops lecherous men, but we have to accept grumpy service workers. Nobody wins. I'm not saying men or women should exist for my service, in fact I hardly ever go anywhere with a (human) server, but the few times I do it's a pain to be treated like an annoyance (maybe that's why I don't go out much anyway).
- sharkmerry 5y ago
  it seems you're saying that since this wont stop all harassment, its not worth the try? since we'll "have to accept grumpy service workers." >> So does this mean expecting service with a smile is a bad thing? no, it means "requiring" or asking for someone to smile is a bad thing when you are holding the power of their income (tip) in your hands. Remove tipping, less power for the customer to tell the server what to do/how to actq
  - falsaberN1 5y ago
    Note I'm not American, the whole "service with a smile" thing sounds like such an "Americana" concept to me at least. And no I'm not saying that, I'm saying that the premise of the article sounds very distant to the culture we got here.
    - leephillips 5y ago
      I am an American, and this false friendliness on the part waiters grates on me and everyone I know. The worst is when they not only smile but introduce themselves, as if we’re meeting at a party or something. I don’t blame them; management requires it. Note that at high quality restaurants, this is uncommon. The waiters there are part of a serious enterprise and take it seriously. But at Olive Garden, be prepared for the servers to practically climb in your lap and show you their photo albums.
      - falsaberN1 5y ago
        That doesn't sound good either. I don't know, if I'm going to eat somewhere at a huge markup I just don't want that annoyed "Ugh, ANOTHER one?" face. I don't chat and much less flirt, I just make an order. It's not uncommon to have the waiter vent at you (unprompted) because they got a degree and only managed to find work as waiters. It's just a lot of negativity for the high prices and not worth it anymore for me.
        leephillips 5y ago
        What doesn’t sound good? Waiters at good restaurants are not unpleasant. They have a job to do and they know how to do it. They are polite, efficient, and knowledgeable about the menu.
        falsaberN1 5y ago
        The "climb in your lap and show you their photo albums" part. I wouldn't want that either. I just want some food without feeling guilty because everyone looks like they are doing me a favor for choosing to eat there, you know?
        leephillips 5y ago
        I certainly do. Maybe things would be better if everyone had to spend at least a summer in a job like this.
        AndrewOMartin 5y ago
        "... I've got respect for that. This is a horrible train and you're tearing tickets, of course you're in an awful mood. [A cheesy grin is] the sign of either a liar or a moron." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9PSg0sQyfs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9PSg0sQyfs
donquichotte 5y ago
> also rely on tips to earn a living, it creates a power dynamic between the employee and customer that may increase the likelihood of sexual harassment on the job In case of service employees, the fix seems simple: raise minimum wages so people can earn a proper living, abolish tips. In other fields with such power dynamics, it's much harder to fix, e.g. winner-takes-it-all fields like Hollywood, high-profile academia etc.
underseacables 5y ago
I would very much prefer that we completely abolish tipping. My wife and I went to a restaurant recently where they had a sign on the table declaring that there would be a 20% tip automatically added to every bill because their employees are “worth more than $2.15 an hour“. I don’t know why but I found that to be very offensive, it’s as if saying yes our employees are worth more than $2.15 an hour, but we the business are not going to pay it.
- missedthecue 5y ago
  Where do you think businesses get the money to pay for things
  - underseacables 5y ago
    When a business has to shame customers into tipping or require mandatory tips, maybe they should not be in business? Perhaps that’s a little extreme, here’s a better one: raise the prices. Pay your employees a fair wage and stop whining that you can’t afford it, because you can afford it, and if you can’t, then perhaps your business model is not sustainable.
    - missedthecue 5y ago
      doesn't sound like they shamed. Sounds like they increased the price of a meal by 20%.
      - Brian_K_White 5y ago
        Of course they shamed. There is no other way to describe it. If they wanted to pay their employees more, they can simply do so. If they want to charge the customers more to pay for the employees, they can simply do so. There is no legitimate explicable purpose to packaging up this action in this very peculiar way. I am just trying to imagine this is any other context. Just imagine my employers invoice for my programming or sysadmin time itemized as "$110 with an involuntary 20% tip because our analysts are worth more than plumbers"
bitshiftfaced 5y ago
This topic is really dicey because as soon as you start exploring the positive aspects of tipping and expectations of service with a smile, you open yourself up criticisms of not caring enough about sexual harassment victims.

20 points by rustoo 5y ago

Something about this feels off to me. So does this mean expecting service with a smile is a bad thing? In my country there's no expectation of either a tip nor expectation of service with a smile, so this article kind of confuses me a bit. And from what I've witnessed neither of those assumptions out of the equation stops lecherous men, but we have to accept grumpy service workers. Nobody wins. I'm not saying men or women should exist for my service, in fact I hardly ever go anywhere with a (human) server, but the few times I do it's a pain to be treated like an annoyance (maybe that's why I don't go out much anyway).

sharkmerry 5y ago
it seems you're saying that since this wont stop all harassment, its not worth the try? since we'll "have to accept grumpy service workers." >> So does this mean expecting service with a smile is a bad thing? no, it means "requiring" or asking for someone to smile is a bad thing when you are holding the power of their income (tip) in your hands. Remove tipping, less power for the customer to tell the server what to do/how to actq
- falsaberN1 5y ago
  Note I'm not American, the whole "service with a smile" thing sounds like such an "Americana" concept to me at least. And no I'm not saying that, I'm saying that the premise of the article sounds very distant to the culture we got here.
  - leephillips 5y ago
    I am an American, and this false friendliness on the part waiters grates on me and everyone I know. The worst is when they not only smile but introduce themselves, as if we’re meeting at a party or something. I don’t blame them; management requires it. Note that at high quality restaurants, this is uncommon. The waiters there are part of a serious enterprise and take it seriously. But at Olive Garden, be prepared for the servers to practically climb in your lap and show you their photo albums.
    - falsaberN1 5y ago
      That doesn't sound good either. I don't know, if I'm going to eat somewhere at a huge markup I just don't want that annoyed "Ugh, ANOTHER one?" face. I don't chat and much less flirt, I just make an order. It's not uncommon to have the waiter vent at you (unprompted) because they got a degree and only managed to find work as waiters. It's just a lot of negativity for the high prices and not worth it anymore for me.
      - leephillips 5y ago
        What doesn’t sound good? Waiters at good restaurants are not unpleasant. They have a job to do and they know how to do it. They are polite, efficient, and knowledgeable about the menu.
        falsaberN1 5y ago
        The "climb in your lap and show you their photo albums" part. I wouldn't want that either. I just want some food without feeling guilty because everyone looks like they are doing me a favor for choosing to eat there, you know?
        leephillips 5y ago
        I certainly do. Maybe things would be better if everyone had to spend at least a summer in a job like this.
      - AndrewOMartin 5y ago
        "... I've got respect for that. This is a horrible train and you're tearing tickets, of course you're in an awful mood. [A cheesy grin is] the sign of either a liar or a moron." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9PSg0sQyfs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9PSg0sQyfs

donquichotte 5y ago

> also rely on tips to earn a living, it creates a power dynamic between the employee and customer that may increase the likelihood of sexual harassment on the job In case of service employees, the fix seems simple: raise minimum wages so people can earn a proper living, abolish tips. In other fields with such power dynamics, it's much harder to fix, e.g. winner-takes-it-all fields like Hollywood, high-profile academia etc.

underseacables 5y ago

I would very much prefer that we completely abolish tipping. My wife and I went to a restaurant recently where they had a sign on the table declaring that there would be a 20% tip automatically added to every bill because their employees are “worth more than $2.15 an hour“. I don’t know why but I found that to be very offensive, it’s as if saying yes our employees are worth more than $2.15 an hour, but we the business are not going to pay it.

missedthecue 5y ago
Where do you think businesses get the money to pay for things
- underseacables 5y ago
  When a business has to shame customers into tipping or require mandatory tips, maybe they should not be in business? Perhaps that’s a little extreme, here’s a better one: raise the prices. Pay your employees a fair wage and stop whining that you can’t afford it, because you can afford it, and if you can’t, then perhaps your business model is not sustainable.
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    doesn't sound like they shamed. Sounds like they increased the price of a meal by 20%.
    - Brian_K_White 5y ago
      Of course they shamed. There is no other way to describe it. If they wanted to pay their employees more, they can simply do so. If they want to charge the customers more to pay for the employees, they can simply do so. There is no legitimate explicable purpose to packaging up this action in this very peculiar way. I am just trying to imagine this is any other context. Just imagine my employers invoice for my programming or sysadmin time itemized as "$110 with an involuntary 20% tip because our analysts are worth more than plumbers"

bitshiftfaced 5y ago

This topic is really dicey because as soon as you start exploring the positive aspects of tipping and expectations of service with a smile, you open yourself up criticisms of not caring enough about sexual harassment victims.