6 ms·

What is a true female only space? That sounds like transphobic rhetoric.

nfyjnvxss 5y ago
Womens' dressing rooms, ladies' bathrooms, gynaecologist offices, delivery rooms, battered womens' shelters, female sports leagues, do I need to list more? There are two kinds of gamete and one type of organism that produces each one. It's not transphobic to recognize the reality of biology.
- thebooktocome 5y ago
  Intersex people exist. That's the "reality of biology". But for some reason you rarely see "biological realists" advocating for intersex rights.
  - slumdev 5y ago
    Intersex people exist at a rate of approximately 2 per 10,000: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/ Most people will go their entire lives without ever meeting one. Do you really think these 2 out of 10,000 people are driving the changes we're seeing in locker rooms and women's sports?
    - thebooktocome 5y ago
      I'm responding specifically to the parent's claim that only two sexes exist. You're projecting your own political anxiety into my comment. I'd rather you didn't do that. I know a handful of intersex people and would rather they not be erased. They suffer a lot of collateral damage from the "trans discourse".
      - slumdev 5y ago
        There are only two human sexes. Genetic diseases that occur at a rate of 0.018% don't constitute additional categories.
        thebooktocome 5y ago
        I hear you saying: "Intersex people don't exist. Intersex people do exist." You might want to reflect on that self-contradiction.
        slumdev 5y ago
        1. Human beings have two arms and two legs. 2. Thalidomide caused some humans to develop without all four complete limbs. These people are still humans. Statements 1 and 2 aren't contradictory. 3. There are two human sexes. 4. Genetic anomalies cause some humans to develop without a complete set of the primary and secondary sexual characteristics of either sex. These people are still humans. Statements 3 and 4 aren't contradictory.
        Chris2048 5y ago
        "there are only 2 human genders" does not contradict "Intersex people don't exist" because such a condition doesn't constitute a biological gender. If it did, it wouldn't be called a "disorder". That said, we can just agree on what words mean, if if there are discrepancies, we can just label alternate definitions, to ensure they remain consistent. Which still brings us to the question: why aren't men allowed in women's bathrooms? If it's just the physical possession of a penis, this would still disqualify many trans-women.
        whatshisface 5y ago
        A category's a category if distinct items are in it. I think you are going for a more specific word than "a category." Perhaps, "social role that exists in the experience of most people?" That sounds like a good description of the two genders thing.
        slumdev 5y ago
        There are two human sexes. Carrying a child in a uterus is not a social construct.
        whatshisface 5y ago
      - Chris2048 5y ago
        > I know a handful of intersex people How did you come to know a handful of intersex people? Since this is unlikely to happen at random, any non-random grouping process might produce a bias that would relevant provide context to anything you said on their behalf.
        thebooktocome 5y ago
        You're really saying that no one who knows more than one intersex person is allowed to comment? Okay, I'll shut up. Have a nice day.
        Chris2048 5y ago
        You're the one who used personal knowledge of intersex people a part of your argument, and authority on the topic - am I not allowed to interrogate that?
        dang 5y ago
        Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27583439 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27583439.
        Chris2048 5y ago
        There are no complaints about downvoting in this comment. What about this comment do you believe breaks the guidelines. I'm not sure how I could of asked the original question any differently: If someone claimed to know several albinos, and in their experience found them to all wear purple sweaters - it might might be worth finding out that they met them at the purple-sweater-albinos meetup. If someone knows a statistically unlikely group, they are unlikely to have been selected at random, so they are not necessarily a representative sample. That's why when you put forward some element in an argument, it should be possible to interrogate it. I didn't express any doubt that they knew intersex people, nor did I say their argument invalid - in fact I explicitly said that it might produce a bias.
        5y ago
      - leephillips 5y ago
        The existence of intersex people does not negate the fact that only two sexes exist. Every intersex person is either male or female. Intersex is an atypical development of male or female sexual characteristics, and males and females have distinct intersex conditions, specific to their sexes. A man with what appears to be female external anatomy is a man, although in some cases that might not be discovered until adulthood.
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    What reality do you think the existence of intersex people proves? There are different conditions classed as "intersex", but they all represent real biological phenomenon, very often disorders, such as unusual genetics - so what does that have to do with the vast majority trans-men/women who aren't intersex, and have no physical or genetic disorder? Also, many intersex conditions still have an effective "sex", further decreasing the population of intersex people whose sex is ambiguous. > you rarely see "biological realists" advocating for intersex rights The intersex population is very small, and consists of many different distinct conditions. What rights do you believe they all collectively need?
    - thebooktocome 5y ago
      As I said in the sibling, I'm not putting forward an opinion on trans people here. The existence of intersex people proves the existence of intersex people. Ironically, they need the same rights trans people would need, specifically, the freedom to exist in the gendered space that matches their presentation, regardless of their apparent biology. One of my friends has Klinefelter, an additional X chromosome. He has serious trouble using locker rooms and restrooms, because he outwardly appears to be female. I'll spare you the details.
- Thiez 5y ago
  And where would the trans men belong, in your worldview?
- chownie 5y ago
  How do you feel about the transmen who occupy half of those spaces already (some unwillingly, female sports leagues) without any pushback?
- ben_w 5y ago
  > battered womens' shelters, female sports leagues Violence and sports[0] are each way more than just gametes. In the case of violence, trans women absolutely get victimised, a lot, both those who have had operations and pass as cis women, and those who have not had operations and get harmed specifically because someone takes offence at their bodies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_transgender_women_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_transgender_w... In the case of sports leagues, the International Olympic Committee disagree with you. Testosterone makes an enormous difference to athletic performance, and it can be supplied externally for trans men and suppressed (including by gonadectomy, assuming I’ve understood that part right) in trans women: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports Treating it as “eggs = woman, sperm = man” is Highschool biology in the same way that as Newtonian mechanics is Highschool physics — it’s good enough for most people for most purposes, but also wrong in a lot of important ways. [0] Edit: this word was previously “gametes”, how did I not notice this error?
Chris2048 5y ago
Why, in your opinion, aren't men allowed in a battered-woman's shelter? We rarely address that point, but now we get the the crux of it; what does self-identification have to do with it? I'm sure most men don't identify as violent either. EDIT: I don't know why I bother engage with these topics sometimes. People consider anything other than "softball" questions as bad faith.
throwaway675309 5y ago
Since I can't reply to the OP post which was quite reasonable but has been inexplicably flagged because we're apparently not mature enough to have a discussion about polarizing topics in good faith, I'm going to respond here. OP post: "In the U.S. we have an emerging cultural convention that someone who believes that they are a different gender should be treated as if they were that gender. I believe that is generally a positive thing, though it can be taken too far with biological males competing as females, and the removal of true female-only spaces. Should we do the same with people who have the puppy pregnancy delusion? Accept their viewpoint and wish them luck, rather than attempting to dissuade them? I suppose in both situations it should be case by case, offering help where the psychological stresses become unmanageable." I think its not hard to allow people to identify as whatever gender they desire. The difficult part is affording gender specific privileges. How "far" does a trans person have to go to be able to acquire these? (Bathrooms, sports inclusion, etc). Speaking in terms of changes they are willing to undergo (Srs, hormone replacement, presenting, etc)
- ashleyn 5y ago
  Being trans also isn't a "delusion". A trans person doesn't believe they literally have the same body as the opposite sex, although admittedly the bumper sticker slogans surrounding this issue ("trans women are women") may create confusion. Trans people are acutely aware of their bodies - they just don't find comfort or pleasure in them. Since changing their bodies to the maximum current medical extent can be done safely and effectively, and this often yields good results, this is the standard of treatment. "Trans women are women" doesn't acknowledge that the issue is a delusion, it is more of a rhetorical device that redefines what "woman" even is (similar to how "marriage" was redefined from its historical definition to be inclusive of gay people). Subtly, someone who _did_ believe they had a natal opposite sex body would _not_ be classified as trans, but genuinely affected by a delusional disorder. Perhaps this would be the prime differentiator between the two. Comparing it to "puppy pregnancy delusion" is like comparing apples and oranges and demonstrates that OP may have been confused by political rhetoric surrounding the issue.
  - zozbot234 5y ago

Womens' dressing rooms, ladies' bathrooms, gynaecologist offices, delivery rooms, battered womens' shelters, female sports leagues, do I need to list more? There are two kinds of gamete and one type of organism that produces each one. It's not transphobic to recognize the reality of biology.

thebooktocome 5y ago
Intersex people exist. That's the "reality of biology". But for some reason you rarely see "biological realists" advocating for intersex rights.
- slumdev 5y ago
  Intersex people exist at a rate of approximately 2 per 10,000: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/ Most people will go their entire lives without ever meeting one. Do you really think these 2 out of 10,000 people are driving the changes we're seeing in locker rooms and women's sports?
  - thebooktocome 5y ago
    I'm responding specifically to the parent's claim that only two sexes exist. You're projecting your own political anxiety into my comment. I'd rather you didn't do that. I know a handful of intersex people and would rather they not be erased. They suffer a lot of collateral damage from the "trans discourse".
    - slumdev 5y ago
      There are only two human sexes. Genetic diseases that occur at a rate of 0.018% don't constitute additional categories.
      - thebooktocome 5y ago
        I hear you saying: "Intersex people don't exist. Intersex people do exist." You might want to reflect on that self-contradiction.
        slumdev 5y ago
        1. Human beings have two arms and two legs. 2. Thalidomide caused some humans to develop without all four complete limbs. These people are still humans. Statements 1 and 2 aren't contradictory. 3. There are two human sexes. 4. Genetic anomalies cause some humans to develop without a complete set of the primary and secondary sexual characteristics of either sex. These people are still humans. Statements 3 and 4 aren't contradictory.
        Chris2048 5y ago
        "there are only 2 human genders" does not contradict "Intersex people don't exist" because such a condition doesn't constitute a biological gender. If it did, it wouldn't be called a "disorder". That said, we can just agree on what words mean, if if there are discrepancies, we can just label alternate definitions, to ensure they remain consistent. Which still brings us to the question: why aren't men allowed in women's bathrooms? If it's just the physical possession of a penis, this would still disqualify many trans-women.
      - whatshisface 5y ago
        A category's a category if distinct items are in it. I think you are going for a more specific word than "a category." Perhaps, "social role that exists in the experience of most people?" That sounds like a good description of the two genders thing.
        slumdev 5y ago
        There are two human sexes. Carrying a child in a uterus is not a social construct.
        whatshisface 5y ago
    - Chris2048 5y ago
      > I know a handful of intersex people How did you come to know a handful of intersex people? Since this is unlikely to happen at random, any non-random grouping process might produce a bias that would relevant provide context to anything you said on their behalf.
      - thebooktocome 5y ago
        You're really saying that no one who knows more than one intersex person is allowed to comment? Okay, I'll shut up. Have a nice day.
        Chris2048 5y ago
        You're the one who used personal knowledge of intersex people a part of your argument, and authority on the topic - am I not allowed to interrogate that?
        dang 5y ago
        Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27583439 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27583439.
        Chris2048 5y ago
        There are no complaints about downvoting in this comment. What about this comment do you believe breaks the guidelines. I'm not sure how I could of asked the original question any differently: If someone claimed to know several albinos, and in their experience found them to all wear purple sweaters - it might might be worth finding out that they met them at the purple-sweater-albinos meetup. If someone knows a statistically unlikely group, they are unlikely to have been selected at random, so they are not necessarily a representative sample. That's why when you put forward some element in an argument, it should be possible to interrogate it. I didn't express any doubt that they knew intersex people, nor did I say their argument invalid - in fact I explicitly said that it might produce a bias.
        5y ago
    - leephillips 5y ago
      The existence of intersex people does not negate the fact that only two sexes exist. Every intersex person is either male or female. Intersex is an atypical development of male or female sexual characteristics, and males and females have distinct intersex conditions, specific to their sexes. A man with what appears to be female external anatomy is a man, although in some cases that might not be discovered until adulthood.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  What reality do you think the existence of intersex people proves? There are different conditions classed as "intersex", but they all represent real biological phenomenon, very often disorders, such as unusual genetics - so what does that have to do with the vast majority trans-men/women who aren't intersex, and have no physical or genetic disorder? Also, many intersex conditions still have an effective "sex", further decreasing the population of intersex people whose sex is ambiguous. > you rarely see "biological realists" advocating for intersex rights The intersex population is very small, and consists of many different distinct conditions. What rights do you believe they all collectively need?
  - thebooktocome 5y ago
    As I said in the sibling, I'm not putting forward an opinion on trans people here. The existence of intersex people proves the existence of intersex people. Ironically, they need the same rights trans people would need, specifically, the freedom to exist in the gendered space that matches their presentation, regardless of their apparent biology. One of my friends has Klinefelter, an additional X chromosome. He has serious trouble using locker rooms and restrooms, because he outwardly appears to be female. I'll spare you the details.
Thiez 5y ago
And where would the trans men belong, in your worldview?
chownie 5y ago
How do you feel about the transmen who occupy half of those spaces already (some unwillingly, female sports leagues) without any pushback?
ben_w 5y ago
> battered womens' shelters, female sports leagues Violence and sports[0] are each way more than just gametes. In the case of violence, trans women absolutely get victimised, a lot, both those who have had operations and pass as cis women, and those who have not had operations and get harmed specifically because someone takes offence at their bodies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_transgender_women_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_transgender_w... In the case of sports leagues, the International Olympic Committee disagree with you. Testosterone makes an enormous difference to athletic performance, and it can be supplied externally for trans men and suppressed (including by gonadectomy, assuming I’ve understood that part right) in trans women: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports Treating it as “eggs = woman, sperm = man” is Highschool biology in the same way that as Newtonian mechanics is Highschool physics — it’s good enough for most people for most purposes, but also wrong in a lot of important ways. [0] Edit: this word was previously “gametes”, how did I not notice this error?

Chris2048 5y ago

Why, in your opinion, aren't men allowed in a battered-woman's shelter? We rarely address that point, but now we get the the crux of it; what does self-identification have to do with it? I'm sure most men don't identify as violent either. EDIT: I don't know why I bother engage with these topics sometimes. People consider anything other than "softball" questions as bad faith.

throwaway675309 5y ago

Since I can't reply to the OP post which was quite reasonable but has been inexplicably flagged because we're apparently not mature enough to have a discussion about polarizing topics in good faith, I'm going to respond here. OP post: "In the U.S. we have an emerging cultural convention that someone who believes that they are a different gender should be treated as if they were that gender. I believe that is generally a positive thing, though it can be taken too far with biological males competing as females, and the removal of true female-only spaces. Should we do the same with people who have the puppy pregnancy delusion? Accept their viewpoint and wish them luck, rather than attempting to dissuade them? I suppose in both situations it should be case by case, offering help where the psychological stresses become unmanageable." I think its not hard to allow people to identify as whatever gender they desire. The difficult part is affording gender specific privileges. How "far" does a trans person have to go to be able to acquire these? (Bathrooms, sports inclusion, etc). Speaking in terms of changes they are willing to undergo (Srs, hormone replacement, presenting, etc)

ashleyn 5y ago
Being trans also isn't a "delusion". A trans person doesn't believe they literally have the same body as the opposite sex, although admittedly the bumper sticker slogans surrounding this issue ("trans women are women") may create confusion. Trans people are acutely aware of their bodies - they just don't find comfort or pleasure in them. Since changing their bodies to the maximum current medical extent can be done safely and effectively, and this often yields good results, this is the standard of treatment. "Trans women are women" doesn't acknowledge that the issue is a delusion, it is more of a rhetorical device that redefines what "woman" even is (similar to how "marriage" was redefined from its historical definition to be inclusive of gay people). Subtly, someone who _did_ believe they had a natal opposite sex body would _not_ be classified as trans, but genuinely affected by a delusional disorder. Perhaps this would be the prime differentiator between the two. Comparing it to "puppy pregnancy delusion" is like comparing apples and oranges and demonstrates that OP may have been confused by political rhetoric surrounding the issue.
- zozbot234 5y ago