7 ms·

Tangential question: in order to become educated/expert in some field (e.g. IT) one needs the freedom of doing research, free access to information, Internet, t

by zerr 5y ago

Tangential question: in order to become educated/expert in some field (e.g. IT) one needs the freedom of doing research, free access to information, Internet, thus exposure to "western"/civilized values, human rights, etc... So how NK "produces" such experts behind the iron curtain?

cinntaile 5y ago
The hackers have a lot more access to information than regular citizens because they need it to do their job, but it would be interesting to know how that affects the defection rate.
- magicsmoke 5y ago
  Probably higher than your average citizen without access to classified information, but not high enough to make defection a common occurrence that significantly hampers intelligence work. Some hackers may be disillusioned with the system, but most are socially conditioned to accept it as better than the alternative, imposed by external enemies and pressures, or not their problem. Defection is also not unique to authoritarian countries, see Snowden.
  - jokethrowaway 5y ago
    There is not a country in the world that is not a tiny bit authoritarian, see Snowden.
  - rjmunro 5y ago
    Also defection can be very bad news for the rest of your family and friends who you leave behind.
    - magicsmoke 5y ago
      Even in a nonauthoritarian country, defecting means you'll never return again to see your friends and family anyways. Given that, defectors probably consider making a political stand more important than their personal connections regardless of what happens after they leave. Not everybody has a loving family and close friends they can't give up.
      - jetzzz 5y ago
        You can't return but what is preventing them to come to your new home. Snowden's girlfriend moved to Russia and I think any of his family members can visit him if they want.
        krylon 5y ago
        I doubt you can just move out of North Korea, especially if your significant other or close relative has just defected.
        magicsmoke 5y ago
        I meant that if he was willing to put his family through that much trouble, they probably weren't that close in the first place. In which case, what does or doesn't happen to family left behind isn't a large factor in deciding to defect.
        rjmunro 5y ago
        > what is preventing them to come to your new home Maybe the fact that because you defected, they are now in some sort of secret jail or labor camp for the rest of their lives.
wombatmobile 5y ago
> So in order to train its cyber-warriors, the regime sends the most talented computer programmers abroad, mostly to China. There they learn how the rest of the world uses computers and the internet: to shop, to gamble, to network and to be entertained. It's there, experts say, that they are transformed from mathematical geniuses into hackers.
55555 5y ago
For one thing, a lot of North Korean hackers apparently live and work abroad. source: The Great Successor
f00zz 5y ago
Bloomberg managed to interview a former NK cracker who defected, it's pretty interesting: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-02-07/inside-kim-jong-un-s-hacker-army https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-02-07/inside-ki...
rtpg 5y ago
Exposure to “Western”/civilized values? What are you even talking about? Yes you can learn to be a script kiddy and plan heists without having the pledge of allegiance as part of a balanced breakfast. Books and random websites and stuff! Not to mention that people from NK or China don’t just explode from logic errors after discovering Facebook. And yes people have ways of getting around internet blocking stuff for “reasons”. They get exposed to minion memes and come out without being totally radicalized.
- a1369209993 5y ago
  > > one needs the freedom of doing research, free access to information, Internet, thus exposure to "western"/civilized values, human rights, etc > What are you even talking about? Charitably, I assume they're talking about something like [0], although calling that ""western"/civilized values" is giving western civilization more credit than it deserves if recent sociopolitics (Facebook included) is any indication. 0: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/23/kolmogorov-complicity-and-the-parable-of-lightning/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/23/kolmogorov-complicity-...
  - rtpg 5y ago
    I mean "lets purge our academics of non-believers" is a practice applied in basically every society, for time immemorial. The non-charitable reading is that they're implying that "access to information" is the blocker from NKers just rising up and accepting "western" norms, and _if only they knew how amazing society could be_, they would change their minds. It's the same brainworms as the liberal "oh, if only you knew all the facts then you would agree with me". It implies some sort of objective truth that western society has found, yet these societies haven't. Educated people in NK know about voting and democracy. It's not some super well-kept secret to keep the masses down. Censorship is just applied in much more banal ways (preventing too much embarassing information about people in power from spreading, and making it hard for any form of opposition to organize itself)
    - a1369209993 5y ago
      > "lets purge our academics of non-believers" is a practice applied in basically every society, for time immemorial. > > although calling that ""western"/civilized values" is giving western civilization more credit than it deserves > The non-charitable reading is <shrug> You asked what they were talking about; I gave a educated guess for the strongest plausible interpretation of what[0] they were saying, since it seemed non-obvious (certainly they did a poor job of expressing it if so). 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
bluefirebrand 5y ago
I very much doubt North Korea produces a ton of experts on their own. China is likely happy to supply experts and teaching, though, as long as they are used to disrupt China's opposition. Provides a layer of plausible deniability for China.

by zerr 5y ago

cinntaile 5y ago

The hackers have a lot more access to information than regular citizens because they need it to do their job, but it would be interesting to know how that affects the defection rate.

magicsmoke 5y ago
Probably higher than your average citizen without access to classified information, but not high enough to make defection a common occurrence that significantly hampers intelligence work. Some hackers may be disillusioned with the system, but most are socially conditioned to accept it as better than the alternative, imposed by external enemies and pressures, or not their problem. Defection is also not unique to authoritarian countries, see Snowden.
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  There is not a country in the world that is not a tiny bit authoritarian, see Snowden.
- rjmunro 5y ago
  Also defection can be very bad news for the rest of your family and friends who you leave behind.
  - magicsmoke 5y ago
    Even in a nonauthoritarian country, defecting means you'll never return again to see your friends and family anyways. Given that, defectors probably consider making a political stand more important than their personal connections regardless of what happens after they leave. Not everybody has a loving family and close friends they can't give up.
    - jetzzz 5y ago
      You can't return but what is preventing them to come to your new home. Snowden's girlfriend moved to Russia and I think any of his family members can visit him if they want.
      - krylon 5y ago
        I doubt you can just move out of North Korea, especially if your significant other or close relative has just defected.
      - magicsmoke 5y ago
        I meant that if he was willing to put his family through that much trouble, they probably weren't that close in the first place. In which case, what does or doesn't happen to family left behind isn't a large factor in deciding to defect.
      - rjmunro 5y ago
        > what is preventing them to come to your new home Maybe the fact that because you defected, they are now in some sort of secret jail or labor camp for the rest of their lives.

wombatmobile 5y ago

> So in order to train its cyber-warriors, the regime sends the most talented computer programmers abroad, mostly to China. There they learn how the rest of the world uses computers and the internet: to shop, to gamble, to network and to be entertained. It's there, experts say, that they are transformed from mathematical geniuses into hackers.

55555 5y ago

For one thing, a lot of North Korean hackers apparently live and work abroad. source: The Great Successor

f00zz 5y ago

Bloomberg managed to interview a former NK cracker who defected, it's pretty interesting: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-02-07/inside-kim-jong-un-s-hacker-army https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-02-07/inside-ki...

rtpg 5y ago

Exposure to “Western”/civilized values? What are you even talking about? Yes you can learn to be a script kiddy and plan heists without having the pledge of allegiance as part of a balanced breakfast. Books and random websites and stuff! Not to mention that people from NK or China don’t just explode from logic errors after discovering Facebook. And yes people have ways of getting around internet blocking stuff for “reasons”. They get exposed to minion memes and come out without being totally radicalized.

a1369209993 5y ago
> > one needs the freedom of doing research, free access to information, Internet, thus exposure to "western"/civilized values, human rights, etc > What are you even talking about? Charitably, I assume they're talking about something like [0], although calling that ""western"/civilized values" is giving western civilization more credit than it deserves if recent sociopolitics (Facebook included) is any indication. 0: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/23/kolmogorov-complicity-and-the-parable-of-lightning/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/23/kolmogorov-complicity-...
- rtpg 5y ago
  I mean "lets purge our academics of non-believers" is a practice applied in basically every society, for time immemorial. The non-charitable reading is that they're implying that "access to information" is the blocker from NKers just rising up and accepting "western" norms, and _if only they knew how amazing society could be_, they would change their minds. It's the same brainworms as the liberal "oh, if only you knew all the facts then you would agree with me". It implies some sort of objective truth that western society has found, yet these societies haven't. Educated people in NK know about voting and democracy. It's not some super well-kept secret to keep the masses down. Censorship is just applied in much more banal ways (preventing too much embarassing information about people in power from spreading, and making it hard for any form of opposition to organize itself)
  - a1369209993 5y ago
    > "lets purge our academics of non-believers" is a practice applied in basically every society, for time immemorial. > > although calling that ""western"/civilized values" is giving western civilization more credit than it deserves > The non-charitable reading is <shrug> You asked what they were talking about; I gave a educated guess for the strongest plausible interpretation of what[0] they were saying, since it seemed non-obvious (certainly they did a poor job of expressing it if so). 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

bluefirebrand 5y ago

I very much doubt North Korea produces a ton of experts on their own. China is likely happy to supply experts and teaching, though, as long as they are used to disrupt China's opposition. Provides a layer of plausible deniability for China.