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Did it occur to you that I mightn’t be American? I think it’s pretty silly to argue about the obvious failures of American urbanism and successes in Europe on

Did it occur to you that I mightn’t be American? I think it’s pretty silly to argue about the obvious failures of American urbanism and successes in Europe on every HN thread about cities. I think main reason these failures weren’t made in European cities is that those cities did not have the same kind of population growth or free space or money as American cities. One difference with America is that there is a little more hope of achieving something more like a natural environment. Above I wrote about how the “greenery” of American suburbia is in some sense inauthentic and dead. America does however have a lot of their natural environment still in a reasonably wild state (modulo invasive non-native species.) In places like the U.K., this inauthenticity extends across much of the countryside too. The fenland near Cambridge used to be wet and marshy before the fens were drained. Much of that habitat is now lost (though there are some efforts to recreate it.) Much of the landscape of the U.K. is not much more diverse or natural than an American lawn, and even bits that look more wild like the various moorlands have been significantly changed by humans to have more land for grazing (or fowling) rather than bogs or forests.

ericmay 5y ago
So if you read my comments you’ll know that I really can’t stand the automobile culture on America. Just want to get that out of the way. But something I’ve come to realize is that American suburbs have great potential if only people wanted to do things and were allowed to. All that green space? That’s a garden waiting. It’s a place to re-plant native trees. AND it’s also a place to do fun stuff outside like throw a football or play soccer a bit. But many people don’t take the time to do any of these things, which is such a shame. We have all this space and green space that we can do things with. Why aren’t more people planting!? :(
- tharkun__ 5y ago
  Don't put all of America in one basket. I realize you probably really meant the USofA but I can tell you that Canada is not too far off ;) We have the same 'everything is lawn' problem. I too am fighting crab grass hell in the front but that's more of a 'I can't really grow trees or anything else on the septic field' problem. Where I am specifically we have a lot of trees. Forest community. There are so many lots here where the only sunny places are the septic system and the pool. Loving it! I do get your frustration though. Even with all the above said, of the immediate neighbors I can see in all four directions only one is really doing it right if you ask me. I always see everyone put out the bags of leaves in fall for example and I really don't get it. Compost them! I do it and one other neighbor does. The rest as well as most of the entire neighborhood just puts them out by the curb. At least only one of those neighbors waters the lawn regularly and the rest just leave it out to get brown, so there's less peer pressure to not be the one house with a brown septic field lawn ;) What I didn't dare yet is to just sow a bunch of meadow flowers and not mow, coz all the neighbors do mow and there are bylaws too.
  - ericmay 5y ago
    > Don't put all of America in one basket. I realize you probably really meant the USofA but I can tell you that Canada is not too far off ;) Yea I guess that's a good point. Canada, Australia, and New Zealand too tend to be more suburbanized versus other countries. Not quite as bad as America but the problems still persist there too. :(
- serf 5y ago
  >So if you read my comments you’ll know that I really can’t stand the automobile culture on America. Just want to get that out of the way. disclaimer : i've enjoyed 'automobile culture' my entire life, and have touched nearly everything that it has to offer. the 'automobile culture on America' , at least applied to the United States specifically, is absolutely compatible with a better managed use of public places; I'm not sure why you framed your comment in such a way as to hint at an incompatibility between the two concepts : automobile culture and citizen-centric management of public spaces and infrastructure. The two are absolutely compatible. I'm not saying that there aren't problems that are caused just-about-entirely by the automobile culture, but improper use of already-inhabited suburban sprawl isn't one of the major ones unless you want to paint all of 'suburbia' to be a 'Bad Thing' and condemn automobile culture simply due to the enablement of commutes and suburban enclaves to exist.
  - ericmay 5y ago
    I'm thinking back to the GP that I replied to and my comment was basically not trying to defend the suburbs (it would be very hard to defend continuing construction of them), but also we can see some nice things about them. At least that was my drift. I'd agree that automobile culture does't cause people to not plant gardens (although maybe it does since why do that when you can just drive to the grocery store?) if that's where you were going. Suburbia isn't the best form of development (we already know what that is) but automobile culture just makes it a monster. It'd be one thing if you could ride a bike from the suburbs to the grocery store and back. But even a mile away is just out of the question for most people. So instead we build giant highways, spend money on highway job construction programs, and tolerate lots of money being spent on cars that become a necessary prosthetic to live life in much of the United States. Not to mention all of the unnecessary deaths, particularly teenagers, caused by car wrecks.
- kortilla 5y ago
  > But many people don’t take the time to do any of these things, which is such a shame. We have all this space and green space that we can do things with. Why aren’t more people planting!? :( Many people do. Massive corporations (Lowe’s, Home Depot) have huge gardening sections with all of the tools to help people do this. They usually feature plants from local nurseries as well to help encourage things that thrive in the region. I don’t know where you got the idea that American suburbians don’t garden, but it’s 100% bullshit. Every neighborhood I’ve lived in ranging from shitty part of town to an strict HOA-controlled planned community had people planting their own flora. The HOAs add constraints but generally leave the backyard to your choosing and still lots of flexibility in the front.
  - ericmay 5y ago
    > I don’t know where you got the idea that American suburbians don’t garden, but it’s 100% bullshit. Yea idk. I can walk down my street and look into backyards (not very many fences here) and I don't see any gardens. None. So, I'm speaking generally but in my experience the vast majority of people in the suburbs do not actually garden. Landscape, sure, and a lot of times they pay some cheap labor to do that. Actually garden and grow food? Very few.
    - kortilla 5y ago
      > It’s a place to re-plant native trees. Not as common to grow food, but planting native trees/flowers/bushes is not uncommon.

ericmay 5y ago

So if you read my comments you’ll know that I really can’t stand the automobile culture on America. Just want to get that out of the way. But something I’ve come to realize is that American suburbs have great potential if only people wanted to do things and were allowed to. All that green space? That’s a garden waiting. It’s a place to re-plant native trees. AND it’s also a place to do fun stuff outside like throw a football or play soccer a bit. But many people don’t take the time to do any of these things, which is such a shame. We have all this space and green space that we can do things with. Why aren’t more people planting!? :(

tharkun__ 5y ago
Don't put all of America in one basket. I realize you probably really meant the USofA but I can tell you that Canada is not too far off ;) We have the same 'everything is lawn' problem. I too am fighting crab grass hell in the front but that's more of a 'I can't really grow trees or anything else on the septic field' problem. Where I am specifically we have a lot of trees. Forest community. There are so many lots here where the only sunny places are the septic system and the pool. Loving it! I do get your frustration though. Even with all the above said, of the immediate neighbors I can see in all four directions only one is really doing it right if you ask me. I always see everyone put out the bags of leaves in fall for example and I really don't get it. Compost them! I do it and one other neighbor does. The rest as well as most of the entire neighborhood just puts them out by the curb. At least only one of those neighbors waters the lawn regularly and the rest just leave it out to get brown, so there's less peer pressure to not be the one house with a brown septic field lawn ;) What I didn't dare yet is to just sow a bunch of meadow flowers and not mow, coz all the neighbors do mow and there are bylaws too.
- ericmay 5y ago
  > Don't put all of America in one basket. I realize you probably really meant the USofA but I can tell you that Canada is not too far off ;) Yea I guess that's a good point. Canada, Australia, and New Zealand too tend to be more suburbanized versus other countries. Not quite as bad as America but the problems still persist there too. :(
serf 5y ago
>So if you read my comments you’ll know that I really can’t stand the automobile culture on America. Just want to get that out of the way. disclaimer : i've enjoyed 'automobile culture' my entire life, and have touched nearly everything that it has to offer. the 'automobile culture on America' , at least applied to the United States specifically, is absolutely compatible with a better managed use of public places; I'm not sure why you framed your comment in such a way as to hint at an incompatibility between the two concepts : automobile culture and citizen-centric management of public spaces and infrastructure. The two are absolutely compatible. I'm not saying that there aren't problems that are caused just-about-entirely by the automobile culture, but improper use of already-inhabited suburban sprawl isn't one of the major ones unless you want to paint all of 'suburbia' to be a 'Bad Thing' and condemn automobile culture simply due to the enablement of commutes and suburban enclaves to exist.
- ericmay 5y ago
  I'm thinking back to the GP that I replied to and my comment was basically not trying to defend the suburbs (it would be very hard to defend continuing construction of them), but also we can see some nice things about them. At least that was my drift. I'd agree that automobile culture does't cause people to not plant gardens (although maybe it does since why do that when you can just drive to the grocery store?) if that's where you were going. Suburbia isn't the best form of development (we already know what that is) but automobile culture just makes it a monster. It'd be one thing if you could ride a bike from the suburbs to the grocery store and back. But even a mile away is just out of the question for most people. So instead we build giant highways, spend money on highway job construction programs, and tolerate lots of money being spent on cars that become a necessary prosthetic to live life in much of the United States. Not to mention all of the unnecessary deaths, particularly teenagers, caused by car wrecks.
kortilla 5y ago
> But many people don’t take the time to do any of these things, which is such a shame. We have all this space and green space that we can do things with. Why aren’t more people planting!? :( Many people do. Massive corporations (Lowe’s, Home Depot) have huge gardening sections with all of the tools to help people do this. They usually feature plants from local nurseries as well to help encourage things that thrive in the region. I don’t know where you got the idea that American suburbians don’t garden, but it’s 100% bullshit. Every neighborhood I’ve lived in ranging from shitty part of town to an strict HOA-controlled planned community had people planting their own flora. The HOAs add constraints but generally leave the backyard to your choosing and still lots of flexibility in the front.
- ericmay 5y ago
  > I don’t know where you got the idea that American suburbians don’t garden, but it’s 100% bullshit. Yea idk. I can walk down my street and look into backyards (not very many fences here) and I don't see any gardens. None. So, I'm speaking generally but in my experience the vast majority of people in the suburbs do not actually garden. Landscape, sure, and a lot of times they pay some cheap labor to do that. Actually garden and grow food? Very few.
  - kortilla 5y ago
    > It’s a place to re-plant native trees. Not as common to grow food, but planting native trees/flowers/bushes is not uncommon.