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> The single most powerful tool we have is fully sharing salaries and compensation. That drives prices up (and other benefits such as vacation time or equity).

> The single most powerful tool we have is fully sharing salaries and compensation. That drives prices up (and other benefits such as vacation time or equity). We have an older, more proven tool to increase salaries and benefits: unions. The only reason US software engineers are so anti-union is 70 years of demonization, propaganda, and exceptionalism. Engineers think they don't need collective bargaining and the power of a union but then they go on sites like HN and complain about their management, salaries, working hours, open office, etc.

digianarchist 5y ago
Former union member and steward software developer here. The most common reason why developers were against the union is because they couldn't negotiate their own salaries. They could see the market getting crazy and were tied to the collective agreement. We paid well and had a solid pension but at the end of the day we couldn't compete with FAANG and that's what a lot of developers wanted.
- triceratops 5y ago
  Why didn't they vote to change the union rules so they could negotiate their own salaries? In the US the screen actors' union, directors' union, and screenwriters' union don't have salary caps, only salary floors. Professional athletes the world over also have unions. Tom Cruise or Cristiano Ronaldo (or whoever else is hot today, I dunno) can demand the sky in his contracts while being a card-carrying union member.
  - digianarchist 5y ago
    Good question. The majority of union members were not software engineers. OPSEU is a large union covering a bunch of different sectors including the finance sector which also comprised of software developers. The only choice, AFAIK, would be to break away from OPSEU and join (or form) another union. This would have been a very risky move.
perl4ever 5y ago
>We have an older, more proven tool to increase salaries and benefits: unions The union environment I am aware of classifies software developers as IT personnel, and every new employee has to start at the same salary grade regardless of previous experience, which is under $60K. They do indeed negotiate salary increases, as much as 2% a year, and they are tenacious, winning retroactive increases even after going years without a contract. Why do you think this is at all relevant to the people on HN who say they are making $500K to $1M at a FAANG? Also, you gloss over (assuming you aren't totally unaware) that during the last "70 years", there have indeed been attempts to unionize highly paid engineers, and what do you think happens when they fail? Early retirement (i.e. blacklisting) for the instigators. Calling people stupid for buying into "demonization, propaganda, and exceptionalism" is not helpful, it's a cliché, and it doesn't need to be said again.
- ViViDboarder 5y ago
  > Why do you think this is at all relevant to the people on HN who say they are making $500K to $1M at a FAANG? The example you gave is, of course, not relevant. What you describe is not the model for all unions at all. > Calling people stupid for buying into "demonization, propaganda, and exceptionalism" is not helpful, it's a cliché, and it doesn't need to be said again. Nobody said that…
- meh99 5y ago
  So we need to disrupt unions unaware of inflation. Engineers also could collectively tank the economy; wfh makes a strike a matter of not opening a laptop. Even just the serious threat would put aristocrats on notice. Look what WSB has done to Wall Street with GME. The last generation has no information advantage. Just a political one. It can be taken away with little to no violence. I mean for one they’re a gerontocracy. Go forth. Disrupt.
  - pjc50 5y ago
    > Look what WSB has done to Wall Street with GME. .. nothing? Well, it's generated a lot of press, but there's no evidence of structural changes. At worst they've managed to make one firm lose money on a trade. We're a long way off a final accounting of how much GME meme investors gained and lost.

digianarchist 5y ago

Former union member and steward software developer here. The most common reason why developers were against the union is because they couldn't negotiate their own salaries. They could see the market getting crazy and were tied to the collective agreement. We paid well and had a solid pension but at the end of the day we couldn't compete with FAANG and that's what a lot of developers wanted.

triceratops 5y ago
Why didn't they vote to change the union rules so they could negotiate their own salaries? In the US the screen actors' union, directors' union, and screenwriters' union don't have salary caps, only salary floors. Professional athletes the world over also have unions. Tom Cruise or Cristiano Ronaldo (or whoever else is hot today, I dunno) can demand the sky in his contracts while being a card-carrying union member.
- digianarchist 5y ago
  Good question. The majority of union members were not software engineers. OPSEU is a large union covering a bunch of different sectors including the finance sector which also comprised of software developers. The only choice, AFAIK, would be to break away from OPSEU and join (or form) another union. This would have been a very risky move.

perl4ever 5y ago

>We have an older, more proven tool to increase salaries and benefits: unions The union environment I am aware of classifies software developers as IT personnel, and every new employee has to start at the same salary grade regardless of previous experience, which is under $60K. They do indeed negotiate salary increases, as much as 2% a year, and they are tenacious, winning retroactive increases even after going years without a contract. Why do you think this is at all relevant to the people on HN who say they are making $500K to $1M at a FAANG? Also, you gloss over (assuming you aren't totally unaware) that during the last "70 years", there have indeed been attempts to unionize highly paid engineers, and what do you think happens when they fail? Early retirement (i.e. blacklisting) for the instigators. Calling people stupid for buying into "demonization, propaganda, and exceptionalism" is not helpful, it's a cliché, and it doesn't need to be said again.

ViViDboarder 5y ago
> Why do you think this is at all relevant to the people on HN who say they are making $500K to $1M at a FAANG? The example you gave is, of course, not relevant. What you describe is not the model for all unions at all. > Calling people stupid for buying into "demonization, propaganda, and exceptionalism" is not helpful, it's a cliché, and it doesn't need to be said again. Nobody said that…
meh99 5y ago
So we need to disrupt unions unaware of inflation. Engineers also could collectively tank the economy; wfh makes a strike a matter of not opening a laptop. Even just the serious threat would put aristocrats on notice. Look what WSB has done to Wall Street with GME. The last generation has no information advantage. Just a political one. It can be taken away with little to no violence. I mean for one they’re a gerontocracy. Go forth. Disrupt.
- pjc50 5y ago
  > Look what WSB has done to Wall Street with GME. .. nothing? Well, it's generated a lot of press, but there's no evidence of structural changes. At worst they've managed to make one firm lose money on a trade. We're a long way off a final accounting of how much GME meme investors gained and lost.