4 ms·

Out of curiosity, and full disclosure-- as a motorcycle owner: Why would you be okay with them being outlawed? Just because it doesn't affect you?

by mod 5y ago

gene91 5y ago
The parent post said "I wouldn't be opposed to motorcycles being outlawed". They didn't advocate for outlawing motorcycles. I think "Just because it doesn't affect you" is a fine reason to have a "no objection" position. I can see why you may feel offended, but I don't think the parent post deserves your anger.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  I think we all have an obligation to stand up for the rights of other people, even when the violation of those rights doesn't affect us directly. Stating a lack of opposition to the removal of those isn't just "not caring" is actively taking a stance that you believe those rights have no value. I think requesting justification for that stance is reasonable and not an expression of "anger".
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    "driving a dangerous contraption" may or may not be reasonable, but it is not really a right in the same way as freedom of speech and right to a fair trial
    - shkkmo 5y ago
      > The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
      - jjk166 5y ago
        Driving is explicitly not a right, it's a privilege. The constitution is not an exhaustive list of rights, but there are still loads of things you don't have the right to do.
- onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
  I don't think OP was angry. It seemed like a fair question. I'll bite. When I was 16, I REALLY wanted to own a motorcycle. I thought they were the coolest. Luckily, I was pretty poor - so I wouldn't have money for any such thing until I moved from my small town to get a job in Boston. There, I made friends with someone whose father owned a business that put people back together after motorcycle accidents. In just a couple of minutes, he convinced me of how unsafe they actually are. Despite the fact that I think motorcycles are cool as shit - it's hard to argue they are "less safe" than cigarettes for 18 year-olds (or for anyone). Also, now that I'm older, I definitely wouldn't mind if they were banned on residential streets. At least the ones that are noisy as hell. So - it's a mix of: 1) It wouldn't be out of line for the Government. 2) It honestly seems in-line for the Government (even if I don't really agree it's what the Government should be doing). 3) It wouldn't affect me personally. 4) Personally, it would actually be a plus since I'm older now and I can't stand the noise. So as I said - I'm not going to vote to ban motorcycles - and I can't imagine it ever happening - but if it did - you won't see me out in the streets protesting.
  - _carbyau_ 5y ago
    I ride. I still think they are cool. I think every human has their own risk management profile - mine allows me to ride. I am not going ice skating ever again though! But I don't expect everyone to feel as I do, clearly. :-) However regarding your points in turn: 1 & 2. I don't think nannying is what the government should be doing. I agree that seems to be the modern character of government though, at least where I live. 3. Obviously would affect me. :-P 4. I can't stand the noise either. I haven't modified my bike exhaust. Most affected I think though would be the "uberEats-alike" delivery services as they seem largely run on the back of scooters, although ebikes are becoming popular too, though no less risky really. Aside: if you still think motorcycles are cool, review what aspect of your risk profile precludes them. Maybe ride offroad, where traffic is much less a thing. If tarmac speed is the cool factor, you could go to a track. Modern MotoGP riders do both so you'd be in good company! Just don't try to emulate their speed capability! (By the time you are good enough to ignore this advice, you will know it...)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cma 5y ago
One case you could make is they greatly disproportionately increase everyone else's liability insurance. They are sort of like if it was a popular exhilarating pasttime to tie a rope around loose tree limbs on people's property and pull on them while standing understand them, and the homeowner was liable if the person was hurt.
- _carbyau_ 5y ago
  I'm not sure how your take works. Either : A. Motorcycles are hitting many things causing everyone's insurance to go up. But here at least, motorcycles and riders are insured differently to cars, as you'd expect with differing %chance vs damage outcomes. So not true. B. The mysterious group "Everyone" is at fault hitting motorcycles too much, causing everyone's insurance to go up. Which seems... fair?
  - jjk166 5y ago
    Your insurance price is a function of your risk of getting in an accident and the expected damage from any given accident. If your driving patterns are unchanged but many vehicles on the road have fewer safety features, the odds of a collision remain constant but the expected damage from a collision goes up. The more people who ride motorcycles, the greater the odds that any given collision will happen to be with someone on a motorcycle, and thus the greater the odds that said collision will result in severe injuries. If the odds of a collision resulting in severe injuries goes up, either the odds of collision need to go down or insurance rates need to go up.
    - _carbyau_ 5y ago
      Thank you for a concise and clear explanation. Under those circumstances I can see how "other people riding a motorcycle" makes your premium go up. I don't quite agree that the "odds of a collision remain constant" over time. Motorcycles take less space for one. But obviously, being subject to more damage has a selective effect. However in any case even if the selective trend is applied to maximum, holding to the assumption of safe/damage for riding-vs-driving means that the premium will have some increase vs a "all car" world. But I live in a world where other people affect me in so many ways that I see this as another similar effect. Damn miners stealing my gaming GPU cards...

Out of curiosity, and full disclosure-- as a motorcycle owner: Why would you be okay with them being outlawed? Just because it doesn't affect you?

by mod 5y ago

Out of curiosity, and full disclosure-- as a motorcycle owner: Why would you be okay with them being outlawed? Just because it doesn't affect you?

gene91 5y ago

The parent post said "I wouldn't be opposed to motorcycles being outlawed". They didn't advocate for outlawing motorcycles. I think "Just because it doesn't affect you" is a fine reason to have a "no objection" position. I can see why you may feel offended, but I don't think the parent post deserves your anger.

shkkmo 5y ago
I think we all have an obligation to stand up for the rights of other people, even when the violation of those rights doesn't affect us directly. Stating a lack of opposition to the removal of those isn't just "not caring" is actively taking a stance that you believe those rights have no value. I think requesting justification for that stance is reasonable and not an expression of "anger".
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  "driving a dangerous contraption" may or may not be reasonable, but it is not really a right in the same way as freedom of speech and right to a fair trial
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    > The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
    - jjk166 5y ago
      Driving is explicitly not a right, it's a privilege. The constitution is not an exhaustive list of rights, but there are still loads of things you don't have the right to do.
onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
I don't think OP was angry. It seemed like a fair question. I'll bite. When I was 16, I REALLY wanted to own a motorcycle. I thought they were the coolest. Luckily, I was pretty poor - so I wouldn't have money for any such thing until I moved from my small town to get a job in Boston. There, I made friends with someone whose father owned a business that put people back together after motorcycle accidents. In just a couple of minutes, he convinced me of how unsafe they actually are. Despite the fact that I think motorcycles are cool as shit - it's hard to argue they are "less safe" than cigarettes for 18 year-olds (or for anyone). Also, now that I'm older, I definitely wouldn't mind if they were banned on residential streets. At least the ones that are noisy as hell. So - it's a mix of: 1) It wouldn't be out of line for the Government. 2) It honestly seems in-line for the Government (even if I don't really agree it's what the Government should be doing). 3) It wouldn't affect me personally. 4) Personally, it would actually be a plus since I'm older now and I can't stand the noise. So as I said - I'm not going to vote to ban motorcycles - and I can't imagine it ever happening - but if it did - you won't see me out in the streets protesting.
- _carbyau_ 5y ago
  I ride. I still think they are cool. I think every human has their own risk management profile - mine allows me to ride. I am not going ice skating ever again though! But I don't expect everyone to feel as I do, clearly. :-) However regarding your points in turn: 1 & 2. I don't think nannying is what the government should be doing. I agree that seems to be the modern character of government though, at least where I live. 3. Obviously would affect me. :-P 4. I can't stand the noise either. I haven't modified my bike exhaust. Most affected I think though would be the "uberEats-alike" delivery services as they seem largely run on the back of scooters, although ebikes are becoming popular too, though no less risky really. Aside: if you still think motorcycles are cool, review what aspect of your risk profile precludes them. Maybe ride offroad, where traffic is much less a thing. If tarmac speed is the cool factor, you could go to a track. Modern MotoGP riders do both so you'd be in good company! Just don't try to emulate their speed capability! (By the time you are good enough to ignore this advice, you will know it...)

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

cma 5y ago

One case you could make is they greatly disproportionately increase everyone else's liability insurance. They are sort of like if it was a popular exhilarating pasttime to tie a rope around loose tree limbs on people's property and pull on them while standing understand them, and the homeowner was liable if the person was hurt.

_carbyau_ 5y ago
I'm not sure how your take works. Either : A. Motorcycles are hitting many things causing everyone's insurance to go up. But here at least, motorcycles and riders are insured differently to cars, as you'd expect with differing %chance vs damage outcomes. So not true. B. The mysterious group "Everyone" is at fault hitting motorcycles too much, causing everyone's insurance to go up. Which seems... fair?
- jjk166 5y ago
  Your insurance price is a function of your risk of getting in an accident and the expected damage from any given accident. If your driving patterns are unchanged but many vehicles on the road have fewer safety features, the odds of a collision remain constant but the expected damage from a collision goes up. The more people who ride motorcycles, the greater the odds that any given collision will happen to be with someone on a motorcycle, and thus the greater the odds that said collision will result in severe injuries. If the odds of a collision resulting in severe injuries goes up, either the odds of collision need to go down or insurance rates need to go up.
  - _carbyau_ 5y ago
    Thank you for a concise and clear explanation. Under those circumstances I can see how "other people riding a motorcycle" makes your premium go up. I don't quite agree that the "odds of a collision remain constant" over time. Motorcycles take less space for one. But obviously, being subject to more damage has a selective effect. However in any case even if the selective trend is applied to maximum, holding to the assumption of safe/damage for riding-vs-driving means that the premium will have some increase vs a "all car" world. But I live in a world where other people affect me in so many ways that I see this as another similar effect. Damn miners stealing my gaming GPU cards...