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That philosophy is fine when the resulting issues only harm the person taking that attitude, herd immunity, viral mutation due to more hosts, and a plethora of

That philosophy is fine when the resulting issues only harm the person taking that attitude, herd immunity, viral mutation due to more hosts, and a plethora of other reasons don't allow us to take the live and let live attitude about vaccinations this time around.

mikem170 5y ago
But it's still a heavy thing to force other people into something. We live in quasi-democracies and a significant percentage of people feel differently than you do. There's also a significant percentage of people, me included, who are willing to respect that people have different understandings of the risks. Lots of things harm us as a group, and we accept them. We don't, and can't, aim for zero risk.
lagadu 5y ago
I'll be getting downvoted but it doesn't matter: it's you. You and people like you are the reason I'm not getting vaccinated. I'm from a time when having and exercising autonomy over what one does or does not with their own body was something celebrated, however now society has normalized insulting and bullying people for making their own choices. I will not tolerate a society that does this, fortunately I'm in a position to hurt it by simply not getting vaccinated. I have no doubts that it's perfectly safe and I'd be fine, with the bonus of being more protected. So yes. You are the reason I'm doing my part to ensure we'll never achieve herd immunity. Good job.
- kybernetikos 5y ago
  > I will not tolerate a society that does this, fortunately I'm in a position to hurt it by simply not getting vaccinated. Don't think of it as hurting a society that upsets you, think of it as hurting the individual people who get a serious disease through no fault of their own and suffer and die from it. It's very unlikely you'll hurt any of the people who have upset you - they are probably all well vaccinated. There are all sorts of actions you could take to promote bodily autonomy, and I'd support them, but if you're really choosing to do this one out of spite because some small section of society has offended you, then I would encourage you to find a different way to express your distress. > So yes. You are the reason I'm doing my part to ensure we'll never achieve herd immunity. Good job. Along with your old fashioned view on bodily autonomy, I'd suggest you take a old fashioned view on personal responsibility too and try to avoid blaming others for a choice that you are making.
  - lagadu 5y ago
    No offense but those are pretty weak arguments. I'm not looking to hurt specific individuals, but rather society as a whole; large social phenomena aren't the fault of any individual (although granted some specific individuals may carry a lot of fault, given their positions, Trump and other far-right high-profile individuals such as Orban or Bolsonaro being a prime example of that but that's not what we're discussing here). Two outcomes: either my not taking the vaccine has no impact on society as a whole so it doesn't matter, or it helps having a negative impact in society as a whole and therefore it also directly or indirectly hurts the groups who upset me (be it via further restrictions, health or economic downturns), in which case I feel vindicated. Most importantly: in both cases my actions spite those who would pressure me into doing it which by itself is a good enough outcome for me. That last argument goes both ways: people who feel it's acceptable to bully me out of my autonomy should take personal responsibility for the choice they are making, so dismissing that argument is effortless on my part. edit: I should point out that for very personal reasons I won't be getting in to, autonomy over the self is something that I hold very close to my heart.
    - kybernetikos 5y ago
      > I'm not looking to hurt specific individuals, but rather society as a whole I phrased it that way because I worry that in seeking to spite society as a whole you're missing the fact that you'll likely hurt specific individuals. Most of whom have nothing to do with the reasons you want to spite society. > in both cases my actions spite those who would pressure me They really don't. The people your actions (and public support of them) will most likely contribute towards hurting (and possibly killing) are those who are sick in other ways, or those who hold similar views to yourself. If you live in a democracy, there are much better, well tested ways for you to promote bodily autonomy without deliberately taking actions most likely to harm people you agree with or the sick and weak. I'd love to see the cause of bodily autonomy promoted in ways I could respect, but this action won't help with that. > people who feel it's acceptable to bully me out of my autonomy should take personal responsibility for the choice they are making, so dismissing that argument is effortless on my part. Well, I think it's a poor dismissal. If people are bullying you, then they need to be responsible for their bullying, not for what you do in reaction to it. If you're really insisting on people being responsible for other peoples reactions, then don't you worry what you'll be responsible for when people react to your behavior? It's my opinion that allowing yourself to be so affected by other people's views (whether it's towards spite or compliance) is fundamentally a less good way to live than deciding what you think is right and living according to that. I do understand the extreme self-hurting aversive reaction to behavior you don't like (and there are places for it), but the internet has made that kind of attitude dangerous - you'll find bullies on every side of every topic, and to let which bullies your filter bubble rubbed you against dictate your behavior in serious ways is to cede way too much of your precious autonomy.

mikem170 5y ago

But it's still a heavy thing to force other people into something. We live in quasi-democracies and a significant percentage of people feel differently than you do. There's also a significant percentage of people, me included, who are willing to respect that people have different understandings of the risks. Lots of things harm us as a group, and we accept them. We don't, and can't, aim for zero risk.

lagadu 5y ago

I'll be getting downvoted but it doesn't matter: it's you. You and people like you are the reason I'm not getting vaccinated. I'm from a time when having and exercising autonomy over what one does or does not with their own body was something celebrated, however now society has normalized insulting and bullying people for making their own choices. I will not tolerate a society that does this, fortunately I'm in a position to hurt it by simply not getting vaccinated. I have no doubts that it's perfectly safe and I'd be fine, with the bonus of being more protected. So yes. You are the reason I'm doing my part to ensure we'll never achieve herd immunity. Good job.

kybernetikos 5y ago
> I will not tolerate a society that does this, fortunately I'm in a position to hurt it by simply not getting vaccinated. Don't think of it as hurting a society that upsets you, think of it as hurting the individual people who get a serious disease through no fault of their own and suffer and die from it. It's very unlikely you'll hurt any of the people who have upset you - they are probably all well vaccinated. There are all sorts of actions you could take to promote bodily autonomy, and I'd support them, but if you're really choosing to do this one out of spite because some small section of society has offended you, then I would encourage you to find a different way to express your distress. > So yes. You are the reason I'm doing my part to ensure we'll never achieve herd immunity. Good job. Along with your old fashioned view on bodily autonomy, I'd suggest you take a old fashioned view on personal responsibility too and try to avoid blaming others for a choice that you are making.
- lagadu 5y ago
  No offense but those are pretty weak arguments. I'm not looking to hurt specific individuals, but rather society as a whole; large social phenomena aren't the fault of any individual (although granted some specific individuals may carry a lot of fault, given their positions, Trump and other far-right high-profile individuals such as Orban or Bolsonaro being a prime example of that but that's not what we're discussing here). Two outcomes: either my not taking the vaccine has no impact on society as a whole so it doesn't matter, or it helps having a negative impact in society as a whole and therefore it also directly or indirectly hurts the groups who upset me (be it via further restrictions, health or economic downturns), in which case I feel vindicated. Most importantly: in both cases my actions spite those who would pressure me into doing it which by itself is a good enough outcome for me. That last argument goes both ways: people who feel it's acceptable to bully me out of my autonomy should take personal responsibility for the choice they are making, so dismissing that argument is effortless on my part. edit: I should point out that for very personal reasons I won't be getting in to, autonomy over the self is something that I hold very close to my heart.
  - kybernetikos 5y ago
    > I'm not looking to hurt specific individuals, but rather society as a whole I phrased it that way because I worry that in seeking to spite society as a whole you're missing the fact that you'll likely hurt specific individuals. Most of whom have nothing to do with the reasons you want to spite society. > in both cases my actions spite those who would pressure me They really don't. The people your actions (and public support of them) will most likely contribute towards hurting (and possibly killing) are those who are sick in other ways, or those who hold similar views to yourself. If you live in a democracy, there are much better, well tested ways for you to promote bodily autonomy without deliberately taking actions most likely to harm people you agree with or the sick and weak. I'd love to see the cause of bodily autonomy promoted in ways I could respect, but this action won't help with that. > people who feel it's acceptable to bully me out of my autonomy should take personal responsibility for the choice they are making, so dismissing that argument is effortless on my part. Well, I think it's a poor dismissal. If people are bullying you, then they need to be responsible for their bullying, not for what you do in reaction to it. If you're really insisting on people being responsible for other peoples reactions, then don't you worry what you'll be responsible for when people react to your behavior? It's my opinion that allowing yourself to be so affected by other people's views (whether it's towards spite or compliance) is fundamentally a less good way to live than deciding what you think is right and living according to that. I do understand the extreme self-hurting aversive reaction to behavior you don't like (and there are places for it), but the internet has made that kind of attitude dangerous - you'll find bullies on every side of every topic, and to let which bullies your filter bubble rubbed you against dictate your behavior in serious ways is to cede way too much of your precious autonomy.