3 ms·

> it's actually a sucker shortage, meaning that employers do not compete on salary. This is apparent in the UK, where there is a two-tier market (IMHO). Those

by Nursie 5y ago

> it's actually a sucker shortage, meaning that employers do not compete on salary. This is apparent in the UK, where there is a two-tier market (IMHO). Those that are good at what they do and recognise their value, go semi-independent and sell to the highest bidder on a day rate. Then there is the perm market, which pays very few people all that well, and is a constant source of complaints - "we can't fill our vacancy for X niche skill at £30k per year!". Well no, you can't, because that niche skill commands four times that, and you're thinking about software engineers as if they were office juniors, not highly skilled professionals. At this end, it is a sucker shortage. They'll fill that role, eventually, and they'll get someone with low productivity that produces unreliable software, and they'll feel justified in their vicious low-pay, low-expectations cycle.

lol768 5y ago
100% agree with this. It's ridiculous how contrasting the levels of compensation are. Of course there are minefields to negotiate (IR35, administrative overheads of running a company etc) but it's a completely different world to working as a permie. > They'll fill that role, eventually, and they'll get someone with low productivity that produces unreliable software, and they'll feel justified in their vicious low-pay, low-expectations cycle. In my experience they then come crying to contractors to try and fix the mess made by the low-paid staff. The whole debacle costs more than it would have cost doing it right to start off with.
dblooman 5y ago
Companies that let employees leave because they ask for more money is also killing productivity at companies. If you are a engineer on say 70k and see a senior role at another company for 90k and expect, once promoted at your current company, to see your salary go up, you might be surprised. Some companies just take the lowest band price if the market, 77k for example and will claim that is market rate. I have seen this many times and if the employee leaves, the company will spend months and thousands plus 10% first year salary to get a replacement and will most likely end up paying more than the original employee was on. I find this kind of process so frustrating as a hiring manager, the amount of time and effort required to go through candidates and interviews just to replace people you shouldn't be losing.
jokethrowaway 5y ago
I disagree. You can find well paying contracting gigs and well paying employee contracts. From my anecdotal experience, finding these jobs require different sets of skills and access to different people networks. Recruiters will rarely find you well paying contracting gigs but they can find you some good employee contracts. Contracting is more tax efficient with some planning and an investment strategy (for now, tax hikes and new ir35 are incoming). Last time I hired I couldn't find a junior with more than zero coding skills for less than 30k, so not sure what are you talking about. I assume there must be a market for cheap developers who can't code - probably all those guys that try to squeeze in during interviews without knowing how to code. I've also seen a bunch of seniors being underpaid on salaries that haven't been updated for literally 15 years - but if you're not job hopping in this industry, you won't go very far.
- Nursie 5y ago
  > You can find well paying contracting gigs and well paying employee contracts. I have virtually never seen an employed software role break six figures, let alone go significantly over. With contracting that's maybe not commonplace, but definitely achievable. > I couldn't find a junior with more than zero coding skills for less than 30k £30k might have been an exaggeration, but I frequently get inbox spam looking for experienced people in the £40-50k range. > if you're not job hopping in this industry, you won't go very far. I definitely agree with that.
  - theriddlr 5y ago
    Outside London – in Bristol, Cookpad and Jump Trading pay £100k p.a.
    - Nursie 5y ago
      Cool. I know Starling Bank here in Southampton didn't completely balk at a six figure sum when I chatted to them a few months ago. AFAICT these are outliers though, whereas for contractors I'm pretty sure it's easier to break through that and earn half as much again. That said, if my info is out of date, and you really can achieve top money in the perm world then that's a really positive move for the UK market and something to be welcomed. I hope I'm wrong :)

by Nursie 5y ago

lol768 5y ago

100% agree with this. It's ridiculous how contrasting the levels of compensation are. Of course there are minefields to negotiate (IR35, administrative overheads of running a company etc) but it's a completely different world to working as a permie. > They'll fill that role, eventually, and they'll get someone with low productivity that produces unreliable software, and they'll feel justified in their vicious low-pay, low-expectations cycle. In my experience they then come crying to contractors to try and fix the mess made by the low-paid staff. The whole debacle costs more than it would have cost doing it right to start off with.

dblooman 5y ago

Companies that let employees leave because they ask for more money is also killing productivity at companies. If you are a engineer on say 70k and see a senior role at another company for 90k and expect, once promoted at your current company, to see your salary go up, you might be surprised. Some companies just take the lowest band price if the market, 77k for example and will claim that is market rate. I have seen this many times and if the employee leaves, the company will spend months and thousands plus 10% first year salary to get a replacement and will most likely end up paying more than the original employee was on. I find this kind of process so frustrating as a hiring manager, the amount of time and effort required to go through candidates and interviews just to replace people you shouldn't be losing.

jokethrowaway 5y ago

I disagree. You can find well paying contracting gigs and well paying employee contracts. From my anecdotal experience, finding these jobs require different sets of skills and access to different people networks. Recruiters will rarely find you well paying contracting gigs but they can find you some good employee contracts. Contracting is more tax efficient with some planning and an investment strategy (for now, tax hikes and new ir35 are incoming). Last time I hired I couldn't find a junior with more than zero coding skills for less than 30k, so not sure what are you talking about. I assume there must be a market for cheap developers who can't code - probably all those guys that try to squeeze in during interviews without knowing how to code. I've also seen a bunch of seniors being underpaid on salaries that haven't been updated for literally 15 years - but if you're not job hopping in this industry, you won't go very far.

Nursie 5y ago
> You can find well paying contracting gigs and well paying employee contracts. I have virtually never seen an employed software role break six figures, let alone go significantly over. With contracting that's maybe not commonplace, but definitely achievable. > I couldn't find a junior with more than zero coding skills for less than 30k £30k might have been an exaggeration, but I frequently get inbox spam looking for experienced people in the £40-50k range. > if you're not job hopping in this industry, you won't go very far. I definitely agree with that.
- theriddlr 5y ago
  Outside London – in Bristol, Cookpad and Jump Trading pay £100k p.a.
  - Nursie 5y ago
    Cool. I know Starling Bank here in Southampton didn't completely balk at a six figure sum when I chatted to them a few months ago. AFAICT these are outliers though, whereas for contractors I'm pretty sure it's easier to break through that and earn half as much again. That said, if my info is out of date, and you really can achieve top money in the perm world then that's a really positive move for the UK market and something to be welcomed. I hope I'm wrong :)