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> Do software engineers really have leverage? Yes, massive, but because of the unique mentality and system of values of engineers/nerds in general we are focus
by justbored123 5y ago
> Do software engineers really have leverage?
Yes, massive, but because of the unique mentality and system of values of engineers/nerds in general we are focused on solving technical problems and learning new things while the rest (management, RRHH, sales, etc) are focused on status and getting a bigger piece of the pie for themselves, so we get f*cked over by them very easily.
>How could we increase our leverage?
1- The single most powerful tool we have is fully sharing salaries and compensation. That drives prices up (and other benefits such as vacation time or equity).
2- Forming common fronts like low skilled workers do in unions or other associations that set minimal working conditions that avoid races to the bottom and exploitation (60hs work-weeks for example). In my third world country companies do this themselves and group in something called a "technological pole" that is just a gathering to cap salaries and avoid competing among themselves. So, they later threaten you that if you quit you would be black listed. (This resulted on a massive migration of engineers to other countries and to freelancing on the internet, they were short-sighted and not very smart :D ).
3- Tribalism. Start to see the rest of the other roles like they see you (management, RRHH, sales, etc). Other tribes competing for the same pie and act accordingly. Stop going along with the "you should improve your soft skills to make our job easier" and flip the tables and start to demand that they become better at a technical level to make your job easier instead. We are in high demand, they are not, simple. Make them work harder and learn to speak to us and adapt to us instead of the other way around.
- jasonladuke0311 5y agoRRHH = HR (in America)?
- caymanjim 5y agoLooks like it stands for "Recursos Humanos" ("Human Resources"). Not sure why that becomes RRHH instead of RH, but maybe a Spanish speaker can pipe up. Is it common to duplicate letters for plurality in Spanish acronyms?
- ma2rten 5y agoAccording to this random Spanish website I found and translated using Google translate, it's done for plural words. https://definicion.de/rrhh/ https://definicion.de/rrhh/
- caymanjim 5y agoFrom that page's English translation: > Its correct spelling is RR. H H. With a point after the second R and one after the second point H, and a space between the first point and the first H. "RRHH" being standard for plural acronyms seems sane to me. A bit verbose, but sensible and clear. This bit about "RR. H H."--with that exact spacing and punctuation--makes no sense at all to me. I'm not curious enough to investigate the logic behind that, though.
- hervature 5y agoNot a native Spanish speaker but I believe so. For example, the United States are EEUU (estados unidos).
- ysa44 5y agoIt’s plurals. See also Estados Unidos (EEUU).
- dap232 5y agoRHs would have been better.
- tester756 5y ago>Human Resources "Resources" it sounds at least disrespecting if you think about it
- sokoloff 5y agoAlso worth observing that “Human” is an adjective in that phrase, not a noun.
- erik998 5y agoif professional sports team have unionized players why dont we... our egos tend to block any imagination... https://www.nfl.com/news/full-term-sheet-of-proposed-collective-bargaining-agreement-0ap3000001102608 https://www.nfl.com/news/full-term-sheet-of-proposed-collect... "NFL–NFLPA Collective Bargaining Agreement 2020" https://nflpaweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/NFLPA/CBA2020/NFL-NFLPA_CBA_March_5_2020.pdf https://nflpaweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/NFLPA/C... https://nbpa.com/cba/ https://nbpa.com/cba/ one day, some startups will realize it will be to their advantage to form some association to collectively bargain with a small union pool of software engineers. It will be to their benefit to compete for labor against the big FANG companies... The salaries won't be as high in the beginning but the clarity and transparency will win over new entrants into the labor pool.
- robertlagrant 5y agoAre the FAANGs not clear and transparent?
- pjc50 5y agoNo? At least two of them had to be sued into not illegally carteling to keep wages down: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation#:~:text=In%20May%202014%2C%20Judge%20Lucy,and%20Intuit%20and%20their%20employees.&text=On%20May%2023%2C%202014%2C%20Apple,to%20settle%20for%20%24324.5%20million https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust....
- erik998 5y agojust because they have bands for certain titles/w2 employees does not mean so for vendors/developers working as consultants via their own S corporations... Exceptions to HR supervision exist
- robertlagrant 5y agoOf course - that's like engaging any other supplier. Suppliers don't know what other suppliers are paid. Is that not the structure of that arrangement?
- Buttons840 5y agoRemember, it is illegal in the US for any company to forbid or otherwise discourage the sharing of salaries among workers.
- wincy 5y agoMy boss told me it was discouraged by company policy to share my salary with my coworker, where I learned he was making substantially more than me. I told him that was illegal. He never mentioned it again. It also got me a good sized raise, so it all worked out.
- doktorhladnjak 5y agoThey can of course discourage you from sharing. They can't ban it or punish you for sharing, but they can discourage it.
- cbHXBY1D 5y ago> The single most powerful tool we have is fully sharing salaries and compensation. That drives prices up (and other benefits such as vacation time or equity). We have an older, more proven tool to increase salaries and benefits: unions. The only reason US software engineers are so anti-union is 70 years of demonization, propaganda, and exceptionalism. Engineers think they don't need collective bargaining and the power of a union but then they go on sites like HN and complain about their management, salaries, working hours, open office, etc.
- digianarchist 5y agoFormer union member and steward software developer here. The most common reason why developers were against the union is because they couldn't negotiate their own salaries. They could see the market getting crazy and were tied to the collective agreement. We paid well and had a solid pension but at the end of the day we couldn't compete with FAANG and that's what a lot of developers wanted.
- triceratops 5y agoWhy didn't they vote to change the union rules so they could negotiate their own salaries? In the US the screen actors' union, directors' union, and screenwriters' union don't have salary caps, only salary floors. Professional athletes the world over also have unions. Tom Cruise or Cristiano Ronaldo (or whoever else is hot today, I dunno) can demand the sky in his contracts while being a card-carrying union member.
- digianarchist 5y agoGood question. The majority of union members were not software engineers. OPSEU is a large union covering a bunch of different sectors including the finance sector which also comprised of software developers. The only choice, AFAIK, would be to break away from OPSEU and join (or form) another union. This would have been a very risky move.
- perl4ever 5y ago
- p1esk 5y agoWe are in high demand, they are not, simple As a hiring manager I can say that finding a good SWE manager is harder than finding a good SWE.
- ipaddr 5y agoIf you hired more senior SWEs your need for a good SWE manager decreases. But that would probably cost more and good senior (at least 10 years) SWE are harder to find.
- afarrell 5y ago> Stop going along with the "you should improve your soft skills to make our job easier" I don't understand how you intend to set up a union without "soft skills" ... or at least one that doesn't collapse in dysfunction and infighting.