7 ms·

> "Engineers are almost completely unique as a labor force. There is far more demand for engineers than there is supply, and that makes engineers powerful in a

by sage76 5y ago

> "Engineers are almost completely unique as a labor force. There is far more demand for engineers than there is supply, and that makes engineers powerful in a way other professions are not." In my experience, this is absolutely not true. Everyone I know struggled to get interviews. If you got an interview, a single mistake would end any chances of getting another interview. The algorithm rounds were brutal, esp online coding tests. I have been grinding leetcode but I'm mentally exhausted now, and working an unpaid job at a startup to at least stay in the game for now.

jawns 5y ago
When you say "working an unpaid job at a startup," what kind of arrangement do you have? Because normally it's illegal for you to work and not get paid.
- sage76 5y ago
  I guess I might be paid in the future. There's no set plan right now.
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    How does that work in places with minimum wage? It sounds illegal.
    - sage76 5y ago
      Who is going to enforce the law? How would anyone even find out?
      - ysa44 5y ago
        The massive amount of paperwork involved in employing someone, for starters. And yes, labor law is enforced.
      - b3morales 5y ago
        Assuming you're in the U.S., the state or federal labor department. You or anyone else with knowledge of the situation can report it. (The law also covers retaliation by the company against whistleblowers.) https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/minimumwage https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/minimumwage
        sage76 5y ago
        There is no benefit in reporting it. I would lose my job and visa.
        renewiltord 5y ago
        What visa are you on? It can’t be the H-1B because that needs prevailing wage. Unless they’re fucking you on that by performing immigration fraud. In which case, holy shit what a clusterfuck you’re in. I’m sorry, man. I feel for you. Hope things get better. If it’s F-1 OPT or J-1 I get it. Even a TN would put you in the same place as the H-1B.
      - beebeepka 5y ago
        Have you considered donating an organ to said startup? You know, as a means to stay in the game
        sage76 5y ago
        Maybe that's the next step. I would just give up and get some other job with less requirements, but I don't know what that would be. There were a few sales jobs that I was considering.
- caymanjim 5y ago
  Unpaid internships are federally legal in the US[0]. Some localities have stricter rules about what qualifies. This only applies if it's actually an internship, though. Unpaid work at a startup is possible if you have an equity stake or some other arrangement. Plenty of startups would never exist if a couple people hadn't gotten together and worked for free (and additionally invested their own money) to bootstrap. But it doesn't sound like that applies to GP's situation. I'm not sure what GP is doing wrong, but it sounds like they're only applying to places out of their league and/or only FAANG. The vast, vast majority of paid software job interviews don't involve ANY algorithm whiteboarding or online test-taking. That happens at a minority subset of companies, and there's a huge range of jobs in between "working for free" and FAANG that are trivial to get with any qualifications. [0]: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/71-flsa-internships https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/71-flsa-interns...
  - b3morales 5y ago
    An internship has very specific requirements, though, as the document you linked explains. If there's no connection to schooling, then this person is most likely an employee under the law.
  - pcthrowaway 5y ago
    > I'm not sure what GP is doing wrong, but it sounds like they're only applying to places out of their league and/or only FAANG. As someone who took over a year to get a job in software after graduating C.S. from a local university, I hate this myth. I was applying absolutely everywhere. It's easy to get a job if you have some kind of name recognition, but if you've graduated with a mediocre GPA, no internship, and no "real-world" experience, it can be very, very hard. In the time after graduating, I took online courses that taught me things actually relevant to the job postings I was seeing, applied to tons of jobs, learned git, worked on personal projects, and attempted to network through user groups and tech conferences. Finally, 9 months after graduating from CS and loads of rejections later (I think I only got 2 or 3 interviews in that time), I was able to get an internship with someone I met at a conference who took pity on me, which paid $15/hr (and with very limited work available). Finally, after doing this for a bit, and continuing the self-education, I was able to get another job (which paid about the same), and then another (which paid a little bit more), and finally an actual full-time job in QA/support which was salaried with benefits. The salary was still low (like $42,000), but improved quickly within the company as I put in a couple of years and proved myself. Before looking for work in my field, I did have very good references as a waiter in several restaurants. I had a CS degree, and was able do basic programming (fizzbuzz and similar-difficulty problems were trivial). And everyone said it's so easy to get a job. But this wasn't my experience, and if I didn't have help from family I wouldn't have been able to put the time and effort in to actually learn the things I needed to find work in tech.
deleted 5y ago
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deleted 5y ago
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juped 5y ago
You see a selection bias in posts on site like this because everyone who's doing great (or doing okay but self-inflating) wants to post about it, while people who are struggling don't want to (and are even less likely if they see floods of posts about how easy it is). I think the determining factor is just "recognizable big brand on resume".
- doktorhladnjak 5y ago
  The experience seems to also be very different for those with at least a few years of experience and for those who are looking for an entry level position
fisf 5y ago
The solution is easy. Don't apply to jobs that involve stupid leetcode hoops.
- lmarcos 5y ago
  Not sure why this is down voted. Perhaps in North America is different, but at least in Europe this strategy still works.
  - fisf 5y ago
    It also works in North America. Outside of FAANG (and FAANG wannabes) I have never seen leet code stupidity. Nor has any of the people I know in the SW field (across multiple industries, fintech, aerospace, data analytics, etc.) Whiteboard system design -- sure. Small practical example project, sometimes. But never that type of brain dead, artificial realtime algorithm coding.
- sage76 5y ago
  'Let them eat cake'

by sage76 5y ago

jawns 5y ago

When you say "working an unpaid job at a startup," what kind of arrangement do you have? Because normally it's illegal for you to work and not get paid.

sage76 5y ago
I guess I might be paid in the future. There's no set plan right now.
- renewiltord 5y ago
  How does that work in places with minimum wage? It sounds illegal.
  - sage76 5y ago
    Who is going to enforce the law? How would anyone even find out?
    - ysa44 5y ago
      The massive amount of paperwork involved in employing someone, for starters. And yes, labor law is enforced.
    - b3morales 5y ago
      Assuming you're in the U.S., the state or federal labor department. You or anyone else with knowledge of the situation can report it. (The law also covers retaliation by the company against whistleblowers.) https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/minimumwage https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/minimumwage
      - sage76 5y ago
        There is no benefit in reporting it. I would lose my job and visa.
        renewiltord 5y ago
        What visa are you on? It can’t be the H-1B because that needs prevailing wage. Unless they’re fucking you on that by performing immigration fraud. In which case, holy shit what a clusterfuck you’re in. I’m sorry, man. I feel for you. Hope things get better. If it’s F-1 OPT or J-1 I get it. Even a TN would put you in the same place as the H-1B.
    - beebeepka 5y ago
      Have you considered donating an organ to said startup? You know, as a means to stay in the game
      - sage76 5y ago
        Maybe that's the next step. I would just give up and get some other job with less requirements, but I don't know what that would be. There were a few sales jobs that I was considering.
caymanjim 5y ago
Unpaid internships are federally legal in the US[0]. Some localities have stricter rules about what qualifies. This only applies if it's actually an internship, though. Unpaid work at a startup is possible if you have an equity stake or some other arrangement. Plenty of startups would never exist if a couple people hadn't gotten together and worked for free (and additionally invested their own money) to bootstrap. But it doesn't sound like that applies to GP's situation. I'm not sure what GP is doing wrong, but it sounds like they're only applying to places out of their league and/or only FAANG. The vast, vast majority of paid software job interviews don't involve ANY algorithm whiteboarding or online test-taking. That happens at a minority subset of companies, and there's a huge range of jobs in between "working for free" and FAANG that are trivial to get with any qualifications. [0]: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/71-flsa-internships https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/71-flsa-interns...
- b3morales 5y ago
  An internship has very specific requirements, though, as the document you linked explains. If there's no connection to schooling, then this person is most likely an employee under the law.
- pcthrowaway 5y ago
  > I'm not sure what GP is doing wrong, but it sounds like they're only applying to places out of their league and/or only FAANG. As someone who took over a year to get a job in software after graduating C.S. from a local university, I hate this myth. I was applying absolutely everywhere. It's easy to get a job if you have some kind of name recognition, but if you've graduated with a mediocre GPA, no internship, and no "real-world" experience, it can be very, very hard. In the time after graduating, I took online courses that taught me things actually relevant to the job postings I was seeing, applied to tons of jobs, learned git, worked on personal projects, and attempted to network through user groups and tech conferences. Finally, 9 months after graduating from CS and loads of rejections later (I think I only got 2 or 3 interviews in that time), I was able to get an internship with someone I met at a conference who took pity on me, which paid $15/hr (and with very limited work available). Finally, after doing this for a bit, and continuing the self-education, I was able to get another job (which paid about the same), and then another (which paid a little bit more), and finally an actual full-time job in QA/support which was salaried with benefits. The salary was still low (like $42,000), but improved quickly within the company as I put in a couple of years and proved myself. Before looking for work in my field, I did have very good references as a waiter in several restaurants. I had a CS degree, and was able do basic programming (fizzbuzz and similar-difficulty problems were trivial). And everyone said it's so easy to get a job. But this wasn't my experience, and if I didn't have help from family I wouldn't have been able to put the time and effort in to actually learn the things I needed to find work in tech.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

juped 5y ago

You see a selection bias in posts on site like this because everyone who's doing great (or doing okay but self-inflating) wants to post about it, while people who are struggling don't want to (and are even less likely if they see floods of posts about how easy it is). I think the determining factor is just "recognizable big brand on resume".

doktorhladnjak 5y ago
The experience seems to also be very different for those with at least a few years of experience and for those who are looking for an entry level position

fisf 5y ago

The solution is easy. Don't apply to jobs that involve stupid leetcode hoops.

lmarcos 5y ago
Not sure why this is down voted. Perhaps in North America is different, but at least in Europe this strategy still works.
- fisf 5y ago
  It also works in North America. Outside of FAANG (and FAANG wannabes) I have never seen leet code stupidity. Nor has any of the people I know in the SW field (across multiple industries, fintech, aerospace, data analytics, etc.) Whiteboard system design -- sure. Small practical example project, sometimes. But never that type of brain dead, artificial realtime algorithm coding.
sage76 5y ago
'Let them eat cake'