11 ms·

I've worked 4 days a week (for 20% less pay) for years now. It's without a question the biggest positive change in standard of living and life quality I could b

by marvin 5y ago

I've worked 4 days a week (for 20% less pay) for years now. It's without a question the biggest positive change in standard of living and life quality I could buy with this money. Will never regularly 5 days a week again unless I have no other options, or unless the pay is so good it's ridiculous. I'd work 5-day weeks if the pay was so well that I, say, could save up five years of expenses in one year. Unfortunately, my local tax system strongly disincentivizes this by effectively having a 62% marginal tax rate. So, in summary, I will most likely never have a 5 days a week routine again. It's just that good. In fact, due to the marginal tax situation, it's more likely I'll downscale to something closer to 50% if I can get away with it career-wise.

baron816 5y ago
> my local tax system strongly disincentivizes this by effectively having a 62% marginal tax rate So high tax rates can be an incentive to work less...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- hnra 5y ago
  You just have to make enough money so you can escape it. All tax systems are regressive if you are rich enough.
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    But even then, taking home 65 cents on the dollar vs 38 cents on the dollar (or euro) are very different things.
- wolfram74 5y ago
  Actually, since it's discouraging him from working 20% over a 5 year block instead of 80%, this is an incentive to work /more/ :p
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
philmcp 5y ago
Same - I recently switched to a 4 day week for 20% salary reduction and could never go back. I'm fine to take the pay cut as other aspects of my life have improved dramatically.
steveBK123 5y ago
This is very attractive to me but I suspect nearly impossible to implement in my East Coast Fintech role. Assumption is everyone needs to be "on" 9-6 M-F because of markets being open. The only day I could see plausibly doing this is Friday as there are few meetings and lots of senior people WFH/use remote offices then. Of course this also means taking the easiest day off! How did you make this work, is it a consulting role? Individual contributor? What is the off day, Friday?
- dahfizz 5y ago
  I work in fintech and have a coworker that made a similar deal (4 day weeks for 6 months a year for slightly less pay). My company treats it the same as vacation time. On the occasion there's something that only he can do but he's not in, it'll have to wait. He is a "regular" salaried dev on a medium sized team.
  - steveBK123 5y ago
    How realistic is this for most people/firms though? I think probably 60-70% of the places I have worked, this sentence " On the occasion there's something that only he can do but he's not in.." would end in "we call his cell". I was just on a medium-urgent outage the Friday before Memorial Day weekend and 2 teams on the call were calling their on-vacation colleagues for help.
    - dahfizz 5y ago
      It all comes down to how the company is run. We sell our product vs hosting some SaaS, so outages aren't a big deal. We also are not a young company who "moves fast and breaks things", so showstopping bugs are pretty rare.
- dsr_ 5y ago
  Also East Coast fintech. Here's the deal: if your company can't deal without you one day a week, you are a bus accident away from killing the company. If you're part of a team, the team should be big enough to be resilient to this change (and everyone else should do this too, and your team may need to expand by 15-20%). If you manage a team, your team should be skilled enough to work without your direction one day a week. If they aren't, you need to step up and develop better procedures.
moneywoes 5y ago
What country is this?
- marvin 5y ago
  Norway. I've only done this with a single employer over multiple years, but I've received offers from at least four others where I was clear about a 4-day week (with 20% reduced salary) being a requirement for me. I've of course always taken care to not present this as the first thing that comes out of my mouth when interviewing, but I have always broached the subject in the first conversation I've had with decision-makers at the company in question.
Zenst 5y ago
Real sticking point for many who use public transport is that most pricing geared towards a 7 day, monthly, quarterly or yearly ticket. Which see's a small saving/break even by getting a 7 day travel pass over 4 single day's and no saving in costs/outlay as the 5th day was already covered still. That does seem to be changing, but is certainly a cost factor many endure, which ironically shifts people into using their own transport and another car on the road factor plays in. Now for a company, were before you had 4 staff to cover 20 days of work, you now have 5. That has pro's and con's, and certainly numbers of employee's will entail scaling costs. Making you hit certain numbers more easily and that can see more requirements as an employer. So suddenly you need an extra toilet, or larger kitchen, extra facilities and all becomes the number of people registered working in that location tips you into complying with such requirements. On the other hand, you have more resilience and less dependence upon individuals and the impact of loosing one member of staff is less impacting. That with fresher more focused staff due to working less hours, then it becomes a complicated equation to balance out on both sides of the employer/employee relationship. I certainly do feel the 4 day week is a good thing, one you appreciate more in later life and does help prevent things like burn out. Also working from home has it's upsides, but also like everything, in moderation. So if you had a choice of working in an office for 4 days a week or working from home for 3 days and 2 days in the office. I'm not sure the choice would be an easy one for many. Personally the later has much going for it, even if working 5 days over 4. But one of the best balances I've known somebody to use was that they would do IT contracting in the Winter and would do water ski instructing in the summer. Equally known somebody who would contract in the summer and Ski Instructor in the winter. Which gets down to one of the key aspects in any job/work - variation, if done right can be as good as a break. Just need to look at all the options and get the balance that works for you. I just hope more public transportation systems adjust pricing to not punish those working shorter weeks as is the case with the model used in many places today (trains, buses).
sudhirkhanger 5y ago
What do you do in rest of the 3 days? I am anxious throughout the weekend. It may have to do with the lockdown we have. But I am glued to mobile anyways or some sort of screen. How can I work on this mindset?
- aiisjustanif 5y ago
  Have you tried going for walks? Play basketball? Exercise? Do chores you couldn’t catch up on that usually need to be done during the 8 to 5? Gardening (even in an apartment)? Running group? Volunteer work?
- whichdan 5y ago
  Honestly, talking to a therapist might be the best start. You shouldn't have to feel anxious all of the time, and there are lots of different ways you can work on managing and minimizing your anxiety so you can have your weekends back to yourself again!
- RedShift1 5y ago
  I used to work 4 days a week and shopping during weekdays is amazing, especially when shopping for clothes.
- pjc50 5y ago
  Some people have family.
- dsr_ 5y ago
  When I had several months of 4 day weeks due to [stupid corporate vacation rollover policy change], I told my manager I wasn't coming in on Wednesdays. It was amazing. Two-day sprints separated by a day or two of rest are really, really productive for me. I never had Monday blahs because I was never facing a long haul of 5 days of work. Number one recommendation I have for you, regardless of your working situation: change where you are. I don't mean move to another city, I mean keep work things away from personal things physically. If you have a corner that you always work in, never do anything else there. Go get exercise -- if you aren't doing any at all now, pull up a map and find a place about a kilometer from you. Walk there, walk back. When it's raining, take an umbrella. If it's too hot, take a bottle of water and an umbrella. There's nothing shameful about hiding from the sun.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
acituan 5y ago
> I've worked 4 days a week (for 20% less pay) for years now. It's without a question the biggest positive change in standard of living and life quality I could buy with this money I agree with the benefits of a 4 day workweek but personally going 80% will have disproportionately higher marginal costs. This is one of the occasions where a collective solution (4-day workweeks for all) outperforms individual initiatives. First, if some of the total compensation is through stocks, usually they reduce both the vesting amount and vesting frequency by 20%, which could translate to some 25% cut in total comp. New stock grants are also prorated, just as your bonus will be prorated by that amount. You vacation days are also reduced by 20%, a typical figure would amount to being deprived of another week of paid time off. In other words, you could have used one day of that paid time off every week to simulate your 80% work, but now you take a pay cut for it. The cost of work side of things are not linear either. For example certain fixed costs like weekly meetings do not reduce by 20%, which means your available heads down work time reduces more than 20%. Unless you do overtime to compensate for that (which beats the purpose of part time), that means you also get an additional productivity hit. Without any WFH arrangement, cost of being housed in a commute distance of work is also constant. If you don't move to a 20% cheaper place while going part time, your rent to paycheck ratio increases, which matters especially for HCOL areas because it hits your disposable income rate disproportionately. The cost function of going to 80% personally is horribly non-linear. Pushing for a 4-day workweek for all avoids that.
- GordonS 5y ago
  > First, if some of the total compensation is through stocks, usually they reduce both the vesting amount and vesting frequency Compensation through stocks applies to a tiny proportion of workers in the US, and a miniscule proportion elsewhere.
  - acituan 5y ago
    > Compensation through stocks applies to a tiny proportion of workers in the US, and a miniscule proportion elsewhere. And to a substantial portion of the tech workers in the Bay Area.
GordonS 5y ago
Same here, I went down to a 4-day week around 5 years ago, taking a 20% pay cut in the process - one of the best decisions I ever made! Also, somehow, by compressing the working week I still get done in 4 days what I previously did in 5, so it's been pretty good for the company (I presume I'm procrastinating less, and spending less time on HN etc). A 3-day weekend feels like proper time off - you have time to do all the chores and stuff that needs doing, and you have time for self and/or family. My other great move was going almost fully remote around 10 years ago. Because of the pandemic, the benefits are now well known by many, so I won't bore you by detailing them again here :) Through these 2 decisions, work and life feels well in balance.
6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
Same here, except for the tax stuff (I’m a Californian! Take my money!). I work maybe 30 hours a week and it’s the best retention policy I could imagine. It just means I screw around less online during work hours. I’m happier and more we’ll rounded. I’m convinced it’s nothing but positive for most workers who aren’t constrained by the hours available for meetings, meaning ICs.

by marvin 5y ago

baron816 5y ago

> my local tax system strongly disincentivizes this by effectively having a 62% marginal tax rate So high tax rates can be an incentive to work less...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
hnra 5y ago
You just have to make enough money so you can escape it. All tax systems are regressive if you are rich enough.
- missedthecue 5y ago
  But even then, taking home 65 cents on the dollar vs 38 cents on the dollar (or euro) are very different things.
wolfram74 5y ago
Actually, since it's discouraging him from working 20% over a 5 year block instead of 80%, this is an incentive to work /more/ :p
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

philmcp 5y ago

Same - I recently switched to a 4 day week for 20% salary reduction and could never go back. I'm fine to take the pay cut as other aspects of my life have improved dramatically.

steveBK123 5y ago

This is very attractive to me but I suspect nearly impossible to implement in my East Coast Fintech role. Assumption is everyone needs to be "on" 9-6 M-F because of markets being open. The only day I could see plausibly doing this is Friday as there are few meetings and lots of senior people WFH/use remote offices then. Of course this also means taking the easiest day off! How did you make this work, is it a consulting role? Individual contributor? What is the off day, Friday?

dahfizz 5y ago
I work in fintech and have a coworker that made a similar deal (4 day weeks for 6 months a year for slightly less pay). My company treats it the same as vacation time. On the occasion there's something that only he can do but he's not in, it'll have to wait. He is a "regular" salaried dev on a medium sized team.
- steveBK123 5y ago
  How realistic is this for most people/firms though? I think probably 60-70% of the places I have worked, this sentence " On the occasion there's something that only he can do but he's not in.." would end in "we call his cell". I was just on a medium-urgent outage the Friday before Memorial Day weekend and 2 teams on the call were calling their on-vacation colleagues for help.
  - dahfizz 5y ago
    It all comes down to how the company is run. We sell our product vs hosting some SaaS, so outages aren't a big deal. We also are not a young company who "moves fast and breaks things", so showstopping bugs are pretty rare.
dsr_ 5y ago
Also East Coast fintech. Here's the deal: if your company can't deal without you one day a week, you are a bus accident away from killing the company. If you're part of a team, the team should be big enough to be resilient to this change (and everyone else should do this too, and your team may need to expand by 15-20%). If you manage a team, your team should be skilled enough to work without your direction one day a week. If they aren't, you need to step up and develop better procedures.

moneywoes 5y ago

What country is this?

marvin 5y ago
Norway. I've only done this with a single employer over multiple years, but I've received offers from at least four others where I was clear about a 4-day week (with 20% reduced salary) being a requirement for me. I've of course always taken care to not present this as the first thing that comes out of my mouth when interviewing, but I have always broached the subject in the first conversation I've had with decision-makers at the company in question.

Zenst 5y ago

Real sticking point for many who use public transport is that most pricing geared towards a 7 day, monthly, quarterly or yearly ticket. Which see's a small saving/break even by getting a 7 day travel pass over 4 single day's and no saving in costs/outlay as the 5th day was already covered still. That does seem to be changing, but is certainly a cost factor many endure, which ironically shifts people into using their own transport and another car on the road factor plays in. Now for a company, were before you had 4 staff to cover 20 days of work, you now have 5. That has pro's and con's, and certainly numbers of employee's will entail scaling costs. Making you hit certain numbers more easily and that can see more requirements as an employer. So suddenly you need an extra toilet, or larger kitchen, extra facilities and all becomes the number of people registered working in that location tips you into complying with such requirements. On the other hand, you have more resilience and less dependence upon individuals and the impact of loosing one member of staff is less impacting. That with fresher more focused staff due to working less hours, then it becomes a complicated equation to balance out on both sides of the employer/employee relationship. I certainly do feel the 4 day week is a good thing, one you appreciate more in later life and does help prevent things like burn out. Also working from home has it's upsides, but also like everything, in moderation. So if you had a choice of working in an office for 4 days a week or working from home for 3 days and 2 days in the office. I'm not sure the choice would be an easy one for many. Personally the later has much going for it, even if working 5 days over 4. But one of the best balances I've known somebody to use was that they would do IT contracting in the Winter and would do water ski instructing in the summer. Equally known somebody who would contract in the summer and Ski Instructor in the winter. Which gets down to one of the key aspects in any job/work - variation, if done right can be as good as a break. Just need to look at all the options and get the balance that works for you. I just hope more public transportation systems adjust pricing to not punish those working shorter weeks as is the case with the model used in many places today (trains, buses).

sudhirkhanger 5y ago

What do you do in rest of the 3 days? I am anxious throughout the weekend. It may have to do with the lockdown we have. But I am glued to mobile anyways or some sort of screen. How can I work on this mindset?

aiisjustanif 5y ago
Have you tried going for walks? Play basketball? Exercise? Do chores you couldn’t catch up on that usually need to be done during the 8 to 5? Gardening (even in an apartment)? Running group? Volunteer work?
whichdan 5y ago
Honestly, talking to a therapist might be the best start. You shouldn't have to feel anxious all of the time, and there are lots of different ways you can work on managing and minimizing your anxiety so you can have your weekends back to yourself again!
RedShift1 5y ago
I used to work 4 days a week and shopping during weekdays is amazing, especially when shopping for clothes.
pjc50 5y ago
Some people have family.
dsr_ 5y ago
When I had several months of 4 day weeks due to [stupid corporate vacation rollover policy change], I told my manager I wasn't coming in on Wednesdays. It was amazing. Two-day sprints separated by a day or two of rest are really, really productive for me. I never had Monday blahs because I was never facing a long haul of 5 days of work. Number one recommendation I have for you, regardless of your working situation: change where you are. I don't mean move to another city, I mean keep work things away from personal things physically. If you have a corner that you always work in, never do anything else there. Go get exercise -- if you aren't doing any at all now, pull up a map and find a place about a kilometer from you. Walk there, walk back. When it's raining, take an umbrella. If it's too hot, take a bottle of water and an umbrella. There's nothing shameful about hiding from the sun.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

acituan 5y ago

> I've worked 4 days a week (for 20% less pay) for years now. It's without a question the biggest positive change in standard of living and life quality I could buy with this money I agree with the benefits of a 4 day workweek but personally going 80% will have disproportionately higher marginal costs. This is one of the occasions where a collective solution (4-day workweeks for all) outperforms individual initiatives. First, if some of the total compensation is through stocks, usually they reduce both the vesting amount and vesting frequency by 20%, which could translate to some 25% cut in total comp. New stock grants are also prorated, just as your bonus will be prorated by that amount. You vacation days are also reduced by 20%, a typical figure would amount to being deprived of another week of paid time off. In other words, you could have used one day of that paid time off every week to simulate your 80% work, but now you take a pay cut for it. The cost of work side of things are not linear either. For example certain fixed costs like weekly meetings do not reduce by 20%, which means your available heads down work time reduces more than 20%. Unless you do overtime to compensate for that (which beats the purpose of part time), that means you also get an additional productivity hit. Without any WFH arrangement, cost of being housed in a commute distance of work is also constant. If you don't move to a 20% cheaper place while going part time, your rent to paycheck ratio increases, which matters especially for HCOL areas because it hits your disposable income rate disproportionately. The cost function of going to 80% personally is horribly non-linear. Pushing for a 4-day workweek for all avoids that.

GordonS 5y ago
> First, if some of the total compensation is through stocks, usually they reduce both the vesting amount and vesting frequency Compensation through stocks applies to a tiny proportion of workers in the US, and a miniscule proportion elsewhere.
- acituan 5y ago
  > Compensation through stocks applies to a tiny proportion of workers in the US, and a miniscule proportion elsewhere. And to a substantial portion of the tech workers in the Bay Area.

GordonS 5y ago

Same here, I went down to a 4-day week around 5 years ago, taking a 20% pay cut in the process - one of the best decisions I ever made! Also, somehow, by compressing the working week I still get done in 4 days what I previously did in 5, so it's been pretty good for the company (I presume I'm procrastinating less, and spending less time on HN etc). A 3-day weekend feels like proper time off - you have time to do all the chores and stuff that needs doing, and you have time for self and/or family. My other great move was going almost fully remote around 10 years ago. Because of the pandemic, the benefits are now well known by many, so I won't bore you by detailing them again here :) Through these 2 decisions, work and life feels well in balance.

6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago

Same here, except for the tax stuff (I’m a Californian! Take my money!). I work maybe 30 hours a week and it’s the best retention policy I could imagine. It just means I screw around less online during work hours. I’m happier and more we’ll rounded. I’m convinced it’s nothing but positive for most workers who aren’t constrained by the hours available for meetings, meaning ICs.