4 ms·

This is a great example of culture clash. In the US, being cut means nothing, you've always got to be ready for another job search. Only a few workplaces (Govt,

This is a great example of culture clash. In the US, being cut means nothing, you've always got to be ready for another job search. Only a few workplaces (Govt, places with strong unions, full professors) have any protection against retrenchment or arbitrary firing. But in India, jobs are careers for life, and your employer is part of your personal brand. The cachet of AMZN is great, until you realize they are going to fire 20% of you every year. People will say "they must have fired him for a reason" because they don't understand it's just about metrics. It's also common in India to solve problems by throwing people at it (and indeed the US if it involves minimum wage workers) rather than difficult tasks like fixing the root cause or improving the process. It's also super hierarchical (I recall watching the manager watching the engineer, who watched the junior engineer, who watched the tech type at the console, telling him what to do), encouraging lots of butt kissing. So overstaffed teams, 1/3 of whom do not much, 1/3 (with replacement) who suck up ferociously to their manager, plenty of drudge work, and fear of the stigma of being fired. Great combination.

perryizgr8 5y ago
> in India, jobs are careers for life, and your employer is part of your personal brand. This might have been true at some point in the past, but it is increasingly changing. In Bangalore, especially in tech companies, it is not a big deal to get fired. You can easily get offers within a week if you are any good.
- angry_octet 5y ago
  Yes it is changing fast, but that doesn't mean your parents understand, or mainstream companies. It's probably better to understand that these jobs are temporary and always be hunting for your next gig, but it is against the cultural norm, where your uncle works at the same PSU he started at after graduation. It probably doesn't help that every IIT graduate is expected to earn 1 Cr.
ixaxaar 5y ago
> But in India, jobs are careers for life, and your employer is part of your personal brand. In the last decade, I might have very rarely seen a resume with more than say 10 years of experience at a single place. The average would be somewhere in the range of 1-4 years.
- throwaway2037 5y ago
  I agree 100%. When we hire in or from India, the turnover on their CVs is incredible. Some people only stay one year, and then leave. How much impact can you really have after one year? It's bizarre, but I try very hard not to discriminate and just chalk it up to "local working culture".
  - ixaxaar 5y ago
    An average software engineer can traverse the entire SDLC of a major revision of a product in less than a year. Perhaps in big tech that would be ~2 years if not less.
- cuu508 5y ago
  Makes sense, people with 10+ years at one place are looking for a new job less often ;-)
blocked_again 5y ago
You theory does't makes much sense. Amzon USA - 71% software engineers recommends Amzon to a friend in Glasdoor. 87% Approves of CEO. Amazon India - 87% software engineers recommends Amazon to a friend in Glasdoor. 94% approves of CEO.
- brown9-2 5y ago
  Glassdoor is not reliable
  - blocked_again 5y ago
    > But in India, jobs are careers for life But remarks like this with no data whatsoever on the average turn over time of Indian vs US engineers are more reliable than Glassdoor rating of thousands of people?
  - season2episode3 5y ago
    What are your go-to alternatives? Blind?
nonamechicken 5y ago
> In India, jobs are careers for life, and your employer is part of your personal brand. This has not been the case for at least the last 10+ years. I cant speak of the 'product' companies such as Microsoft, Google etc. But for anyone working in the WITCH like companies, only way to get your salary changed is to switch companies. People change their jobs every 2 years or so, especially in their first 10 years. After that, it becomes less, probably because WITCHes feast on the young ones more, making more money from them. Openings for 10+ years are very less in these companies. WITCHes hire fresh graduates and pay them very less, hardly enough to survive as a bachelor in a big city like Bengaluru. So the only way to get your salary changed is by finding another job. When a person with 2 years experience change job, they often get double of what they were getting earlier. And every job change from then on comes with a 20-40% increase. Loyalty penalty is a very real thing in these companies. I don't think anyone in the Indian IT industry thinks jobs are careers for life. I feel like our shelf life is around 40 years of age. Only a few survive the industry after that. Sad thing is there is no social security like in US, so we are completely on our own. I was pleasantly surprised to find out that there were so many senior engineers working in US companies. In WITCH like companies, every single team I have seen are structured mostly with 0-3 years, a few 4-8 years. People with more experience expect more salary. Clients want cheap 'resources'. So, these companies hire mostly the cheaper ones.
- satyanash 5y ago
  > WITCH I would presume: Wipro, Infosys, TCS, Cognizant, HCL
- solarmist 5y ago
  What are WITCH companies?
  - shmde 5y ago
    W- Wipro I- Infosys T- TCS C- Cognizant H- HCL A- Accenture India. These companies take up sweatshop jobs from companies in US/europe ( manual testing jobs mostly ). Below are some pros and cons of joining. ( Speaking only for new joiners at level 12 Associate Software Engineer ) Pros - 1). You won't need any skills to get in, if you can speak english you are already in. 2). Provides employment to a lot of undergraduate students ( talking in hundreds of thousands ) who will be probably jobless due to lack of skills in their field. 3). Work is easy, you will get paid around 400 USD a month ( new comers, which is livable in metro cities ) 4). Health insurance is given. 5). Good company to work for if you have absolutely nothing in hand, come from a poor background and have to put food on the table. Have to give props to these companies for that. They have created a lot of job opportunities for the lower middle class people who have undergraduate degrees and cannot find job anywhere else. 6). These companies have been doing great, and will not probably fail in the future. Cons- 1). Shit work, absolute garbage work. ( Predominantly manual testing QA). 2). NO CAREER GROWTH. If you stay long enough you will have to keep working in these type of companies because no one will hire a guy who has been manual testing for years into dev roles. 3). High attrition rates ( why do you think they hire in hundreds of thousands ? ) 4). They call you Associate Software Engineer but there is 0 absolutely 0 engineering job. The title is a joke just to make people at the bottom of the barrel feel good. 5). People who stay in these companies for more than 4-5 years stay here for life because they know they cannot probably get a job anywhere else with the limited skillset. 6). The pay for new joiners have NOT INCREASED SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME. Its the same freaking money since they started operating in india !! 400 USD a month since probably 2005-2006. Inflation is a hoax to these companies. End note. If you are even a bit ambitious and find yourself working here, please work a bit harder and go to a decent enough company which ships actual products and make you write code.

perryizgr8 5y ago

> in India, jobs are careers for life, and your employer is part of your personal brand. This might have been true at some point in the past, but it is increasingly changing. In Bangalore, especially in tech companies, it is not a big deal to get fired. You can easily get offers within a week if you are any good.

angry_octet 5y ago
Yes it is changing fast, but that doesn't mean your parents understand, or mainstream companies. It's probably better to understand that these jobs are temporary and always be hunting for your next gig, but it is against the cultural norm, where your uncle works at the same PSU he started at after graduation. It probably doesn't help that every IIT graduate is expected to earn 1 Cr.

ixaxaar 5y ago

> But in India, jobs are careers for life, and your employer is part of your personal brand. In the last decade, I might have very rarely seen a resume with more than say 10 years of experience at a single place. The average would be somewhere in the range of 1-4 years.

throwaway2037 5y ago
I agree 100%. When we hire in or from India, the turnover on their CVs is incredible. Some people only stay one year, and then leave. How much impact can you really have after one year? It's bizarre, but I try very hard not to discriminate and just chalk it up to "local working culture".
- ixaxaar 5y ago
  An average software engineer can traverse the entire SDLC of a major revision of a product in less than a year. Perhaps in big tech that would be ~2 years if not less.
cuu508 5y ago
Makes sense, people with 10+ years at one place are looking for a new job less often ;-)

blocked_again 5y ago

You theory does't makes much sense. Amzon USA - 71% software engineers recommends Amzon to a friend in Glasdoor. 87% Approves of CEO. Amazon India - 87% software engineers recommends Amazon to a friend in Glasdoor. 94% approves of CEO.

brown9-2 5y ago
Glassdoor is not reliable
- blocked_again 5y ago
  > But in India, jobs are careers for life But remarks like this with no data whatsoever on the average turn over time of Indian vs US engineers are more reliable than Glassdoor rating of thousands of people?
- season2episode3 5y ago
  What are your go-to alternatives? Blind?

nonamechicken 5y ago

> In India, jobs are careers for life, and your employer is part of your personal brand. This has not been the case for at least the last 10+ years. I cant speak of the 'product' companies such as Microsoft, Google etc. But for anyone working in the WITCH like companies, only way to get your salary changed is to switch companies. People change their jobs every 2 years or so, especially in their first 10 years. After that, it becomes less, probably because WITCHes feast on the young ones more, making more money from them. Openings for 10+ years are very less in these companies. WITCHes hire fresh graduates and pay them very less, hardly enough to survive as a bachelor in a big city like Bengaluru. So the only way to get your salary changed is by finding another job. When a person with 2 years experience change job, they often get double of what they were getting earlier. And every job change from then on comes with a 20-40% increase. Loyalty penalty is a very real thing in these companies. I don't think anyone in the Indian IT industry thinks jobs are careers for life. I feel like our shelf life is around 40 years of age. Only a few survive the industry after that. Sad thing is there is no social security like in US, so we are completely on our own. I was pleasantly surprised to find out that there were so many senior engineers working in US companies. In WITCH like companies, every single team I have seen are structured mostly with 0-3 years, a few 4-8 years. People with more experience expect more salary. Clients want cheap 'resources'. So, these companies hire mostly the cheaper ones.

satyanash 5y ago
> WITCH I would presume: Wipro, Infosys, TCS, Cognizant, HCL
solarmist 5y ago
What are WITCH companies?
- shmde 5y ago
  W- Wipro I- Infosys T- TCS C- Cognizant H- HCL A- Accenture India. These companies take up sweatshop jobs from companies in US/europe ( manual testing jobs mostly ). Below are some pros and cons of joining. ( Speaking only for new joiners at level 12 Associate Software Engineer ) Pros - 1). You won't need any skills to get in, if you can speak english you are already in. 2). Provides employment to a lot of undergraduate students ( talking in hundreds of thousands ) who will be probably jobless due to lack of skills in their field. 3). Work is easy, you will get paid around 400 USD a month ( new comers, which is livable in metro cities ) 4). Health insurance is given. 5). Good company to work for if you have absolutely nothing in hand, come from a poor background and have to put food on the table. Have to give props to these companies for that. They have created a lot of job opportunities for the lower middle class people who have undergraduate degrees and cannot find job anywhere else. 6). These companies have been doing great, and will not probably fail in the future. Cons- 1). Shit work, absolute garbage work. ( Predominantly manual testing QA). 2). NO CAREER GROWTH. If you stay long enough you will have to keep working in these type of companies because no one will hire a guy who has been manual testing for years into dev roles. 3). High attrition rates ( why do you think they hire in hundreds of thousands ? ) 4). They call you Associate Software Engineer but there is 0 absolutely 0 engineering job. The title is a joke just to make people at the bottom of the barrel feel good. 5). People who stay in these companies for more than 4-5 years stay here for life because they know they cannot probably get a job anywhere else with the limited skillset. 6). The pay for new joiners have NOT INCREASED SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME. Its the same freaking money since they started operating in india !! 400 USD a month since probably 2005-2006. Inflation is a hoax to these companies. End note. If you are even a bit ambitious and find yourself working here, please work a bit harder and go to a decent enough company which ships actual products and make you write code.