5 ms·

I've had two job offers from AWS for SA and TAM and I turned both down. The actual position was always lower than what I was originally interviewing for (Senior

by pram 5y ago

I've had two job offers from AWS for SA and TAM and I turned both down. The actual position was always lower than what I was originally interviewing for (Senior instead of Staff) Literally the only company I've seen that does that. It's like a bait and switch. If I'm not actually qualified just say no lol

pc86 5y ago
This might be a dumb question but if it's standard to drop everyone a level (I've heard this too) is it possible to interview for Principal or something where they would drop you back to Staff?
- f6v 5y ago
  I’d interview for CEO instead and see where that lands me.
  - FredPret 5y ago
    Funny but also not a bad approach to life
tweenagedream 5y ago
I think down leveling is quite common, especially at higher levels as the expectations grow quite a bit between senior and staff. Depending on the position, actually filling it with +/-1 of the target level is a win. Interviewing is expensive and if a candidate is good for the role, but perhaps just a bit below the bar, then a recommendation to hire at L-1 tries to keep the candidate and give them a career path. This is from my perspective at Google, I've never worked at Amazon.
jelling 5y ago
My friend works there and said that virtually everyone gets dropped a rank on the way in. It’s so common that people commonly introduce themselves as “I’m an X but pre-Amazon I was an X+1”.
- Frost1x 5y ago
  Sounds like an HR policy to reduce labor costs. As long as Amazon keeps a steady supply of labor behind you and at least some of them don't have other comparable options, they're going to agree to these terms and their hiring teams are going to continue this nefarious practice. Some may agree to it alone in an unconscious sunk cost fallacy. There really need to be laws with teeth about false advertisement from both employees and employers so we can skip this sort of non-sense false advertising.
- aix1 5y ago
  If someone was L+1 at a similar-tier company, why would they accept the downlevelling instead of a finding a suitable gig elsewhere? Is Amazon that appealing? Are openings that scarce?
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    Compared to smaller/less prestigious/non-tech companies, a certain level at Amazon/Google/FB will generally come with a higher expectation for technical competence, as well as more comp -- even an L4, mid level engineer at Google makes like 250k. So someone who's a "Senior Software Engineer" from some rando firm in the Midwest may still be doubling their salary or more. The extreme version of this is being CTO as a startup of 10 people vs CTO at a company of 10,000.
steelframe 5y ago
I'm at the point of my career where it's all about the manager, the hours, the comp, and the kind of work I'll be doing. I no longer care as much about the title or level. In fact if the level is lower, great -- I'll have an even easier time getting high perf scores. These days, when I negotiate for a new job in Big Tech, I first and foremost maximize base pay. That's [1] immediate (no waiting for vest or anything), [2] durable (carries forward into future jobs), [3] non-variable (doesn't arbitrarily change much year to year while at the same company), and [4] the basis for bonus. Then, I pay very close attention to who my manager will be. In fact I've once switched companies just to follow a great manager. After that, I make sure I won't be carrying a pager that can ever "go off" in the middle of the night. That's a non-negotiable for me at this point in my career. Then I negotiate up-front for a couple of pre-planned multi-week trips in my first two years to get around the bullsh*t of "you don't get real vacation time until you've earned it by staying at the company long enough." Finally I look at the small print in the non-compete and the benefits. Oh wait, you mean my long-term disability coverage won't actually become effective until I've been with the company for 12 months? Nope; it's effective immediately. Oh, you want 18 months of non-compete? Nope, you're doing what every other company does. 12 months. I'm finding that I'm in way too high demand among tech employers to put up with anything less. I am well aware that my demands are too much for places like Amazon, which is no skin off my back.
- chewzerita 5y ago
  > After that, I make sure I won't be carrying a pager that can ever "go off" in the middle of the night. That's a non-negotiable for me at this point in my career. I'm currently in undergrad so starting my actual "career" still seems far enough off for me, but serious question how do people actually accept that? Will I have to accept that when I apply for junior/entry level positions? I don't think I'm asking too much if I want to have a full night sleep and a strong work/life divide. I might be a bit young and naive, but I hope I won't get comfortable with living at the beck and call of my employer. People are more than just their individual contribution to lining the pockets of their bosses, no?
  - ev1 5y ago
__derek__ 5y ago
AFAIK, there is no Staff designation. On the IC track, L6 is Senior, L7 is Principal, and L8 is Senior Principal.
- pram 5y ago
  Yes whatever is above Senior, I don't have every corporations IC structure memorized
  - hn_go_brrrrr 5y ago
    http://levels.fyi http://levels.fyi is a great reference for converting between levels at different companies. Cuts through a lot of the bullshit recruiters and HR will try to sell you.
TulliusCicero 5y ago
Realistically, the expectations for technical competence for a senior engineer are going to be higher at a huge successful tech behemoth like Amazon or Google than most smaller companies (though maybe not tech start ups), especially non-tech ones.

by pram 5y ago

pc86 5y ago

This might be a dumb question but if it's standard to drop everyone a level (I've heard this too) is it possible to interview for Principal or something where they would drop you back to Staff?

f6v 5y ago
I’d interview for CEO instead and see where that lands me.
- FredPret 5y ago
  Funny but also not a bad approach to life

tweenagedream 5y ago

I think down leveling is quite common, especially at higher levels as the expectations grow quite a bit between senior and staff. Depending on the position, actually filling it with +/-1 of the target level is a win. Interviewing is expensive and if a candidate is good for the role, but perhaps just a bit below the bar, then a recommendation to hire at L-1 tries to keep the candidate and give them a career path. This is from my perspective at Google, I've never worked at Amazon.

jelling 5y ago

My friend works there and said that virtually everyone gets dropped a rank on the way in. It’s so common that people commonly introduce themselves as “I’m an X but pre-Amazon I was an X+1”.

Frost1x 5y ago
Sounds like an HR policy to reduce labor costs. As long as Amazon keeps a steady supply of labor behind you and at least some of them don't have other comparable options, they're going to agree to these terms and their hiring teams are going to continue this nefarious practice. Some may agree to it alone in an unconscious sunk cost fallacy. There really need to be laws with teeth about false advertisement from both employees and employers so we can skip this sort of non-sense false advertising.
aix1 5y ago
If someone was L+1 at a similar-tier company, why would they accept the downlevelling instead of a finding a suitable gig elsewhere? Is Amazon that appealing? Are openings that scarce?
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  Compared to smaller/less prestigious/non-tech companies, a certain level at Amazon/Google/FB will generally come with a higher expectation for technical competence, as well as more comp -- even an L4, mid level engineer at Google makes like 250k. So someone who's a "Senior Software Engineer" from some rando firm in the Midwest may still be doubling their salary or more. The extreme version of this is being CTO as a startup of 10 people vs CTO at a company of 10,000.

steelframe 5y ago

I'm at the point of my career where it's all about the manager, the hours, the comp, and the kind of work I'll be doing. I no longer care as much about the title or level. In fact if the level is lower, great -- I'll have an even easier time getting high perf scores. These days, when I negotiate for a new job in Big Tech, I first and foremost maximize base pay. That's [1] immediate (no waiting for vest or anything), [2] durable (carries forward into future jobs), [3] non-variable (doesn't arbitrarily change much year to year while at the same company), and [4] the basis for bonus. Then, I pay very close attention to who my manager will be. In fact I've once switched companies just to follow a great manager. After that, I make sure I won't be carrying a pager that can ever "go off" in the middle of the night. That's a non-negotiable for me at this point in my career. Then I negotiate up-front for a couple of pre-planned multi-week trips in my first two years to get around the bullsh*t of "you don't get real vacation time until you've earned it by staying at the company long enough." Finally I look at the small print in the non-compete and the benefits. Oh wait, you mean my long-term disability coverage won't actually become effective until I've been with the company for 12 months? Nope; it's effective immediately. Oh, you want 18 months of non-compete? Nope, you're doing what every other company does. 12 months. I'm finding that I'm in way too high demand among tech employers to put up with anything less. I am well aware that my demands are too much for places like Amazon, which is no skin off my back.

chewzerita 5y ago
> After that, I make sure I won't be carrying a pager that can ever "go off" in the middle of the night. That's a non-negotiable for me at this point in my career. I'm currently in undergrad so starting my actual "career" still seems far enough off for me, but serious question how do people actually accept that? Will I have to accept that when I apply for junior/entry level positions? I don't think I'm asking too much if I want to have a full night sleep and a strong work/life divide. I might be a bit young and naive, but I hope I won't get comfortable with living at the beck and call of my employer. People are more than just their individual contribution to lining the pockets of their bosses, no?
- ev1 5y ago

__derek__ 5y ago

AFAIK, there is no Staff designation. On the IC track, L6 is Senior, L7 is Principal, and L8 is Senior Principal.

pram 5y ago
Yes whatever is above Senior, I don't have every corporations IC structure memorized
- hn_go_brrrrr 5y ago
  http://levels.fyi http://levels.fyi is a great reference for converting between levels at different companies. Cuts through a lot of the bullshit recruiters and HR will try to sell you.

TulliusCicero 5y ago

Realistically, the expectations for technical competence for a senior engineer are going to be higher at a huge successful tech behemoth like Amazon or Google than most smaller companies (though maybe not tech start ups), especially non-tech ones.