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I really don’t like the idea of the government dictating what a company does with it’s software, so the idea of forced side loading or other app stores doesn’t

I really don’t like the idea of the government dictating what a company does with it’s software, so the idea of forced side loading or other app stores doesn’t sit well with me. However as far as installing your own OS on the hardware, that seems like something we could require without a downside. I don’t think the companies should be forced to provide anything, other than the specifications of the hardware, they just shouldn’t be allowed to stop it. If someone wants to write drivers and get an OS running on an iPad then they should be able to. If it’s a security issue then the preloaded OS could disable sensitive thing, perhaps Apple Pay and stuff stops working, but your in your own OS anyway so why would it matter. I think it should go for any hardware. You could do it in a tesla, the insurance companies could decide not to cover cars that have custom software on them, but someone racing them could run their own OS if they wanted. I think allowing something like this could go a long way to stop the people that seem to want the government intervening with everything these days.

wayoutthere 5y ago
In my opinion, a large portion of the benefit I get from iOS is due to the fact it’s a secure, locked down platform. If there were a way to run unsigned code on iOS, people would build exploits around it and malicious apps would just tell you to enable whatever “advanced mode” or be able to install a bootloader that transparently loads the OS but with a malware layer between the bootloader and the kernel. By disallowing unsigned code, these less-technical exploits become impossible, which also limits the blast radius of any exploits that are found. If I want general purpose computing, I have other devices that allow more freedom (like a laptop or cloud server). I don’t need to be able to do everything with one device.
- ThePhysicist 5y ago
  It's fine if you want to run iOS or iPadOS on your device, that shouldn't exclude other people from installing an OS of their own choosing though.
  - judge2020 5y ago
    I would argue that being able to easily do that would be a security issue in itself - imagine an evil maid attack that is just installing iOS with a change that sends all keychain items to a remote server or makes it easy to obtain the encryption key that protects all user data.
    - fartcannon 5y ago
      Since iOS isn't flawless and it is ubiquitous across Apple devices, think of the damage that can be done by a single virus. iOS lacks diversity and is therefore a fantastic target for malware.
    - mindslight 5y ago
      As these systems rely on trusted hardware, it's straightforward to do things like require the device be plugged in and in some low-level diag mode for 72 hours before allowing the root signing key to be changed. Trusted hardware could be interesting if companies actually developed it to be legible to the user-owner, rather than their current approach of doing the bare minimum to bake in their own fixed root keys.
      - warkdarrior 5y ago
        Next headline would be: "Apple cripple iPads, force Linux installs to take 72 hours"
        bengale 5y ago
        It's becoming more and more clear that 'tech journalism' is essentially the same thing as the celebrity news rags.
        Tsiklon 5y ago
        Some tech news websites like The Register are completely self aware of that fact and lean into it completely and utterly
- bengale 5y ago
  I’m of the same opinion, and I wouldn’t be looking to install a different OS personally. But I think it would be a good general rule that that you can run whatever software you want on your own hardware, but not expect the manufacturing to help you, just not actively hinder you.
  - msbarnett 5y ago
    Seems like “not expect the manufacturing to help you, just not actively hinder you” risks a lot of “interesting” interpretations. Is my Microwave’s manufacturer actively hindering me by sealing access to its firmware behind a wall of plastic with no external port? If it’s not, could Apple just remove the iPhone’s port, throw a wireless charger in the box, and call it a day?
    - fartcannon 5y ago
      Yes the microwave should have accessible firmware. All electronics should have accessible firmware, software and hardware. Because it prevents abuse of powers (like Epson printers, for example) and, most importantly, it prevents waste. Apple, due to its war on repair, locked software and influence among its peers is an environmental catastrophe.
judge2020 5y ago
You can install anything on your hardware you want, assuming you find a way to do that - apple doesn’t have an obligation to make it easy, but they can’t go after you legally for using https://projectsandcastle.org/ https://projectsandcastle.org/ on a supported device. That’s the thing - I bought a completely locked down device where a central authority dictates what can be installed since I trust them to verify the app’s capabilities and the source’s identity. I know the software isn’t impenetrable nor apple infallible, but it reduces my threat model a lot compared to if I were running Android.
- wintermutestwin 5y ago
  This makes no sense to me. I was under the impression that Android is essentially spyware for google.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - ac29 5y ago
    You don't need a Google account to use an Android phone, and even if you choose to use one, you can turn off sensitive things like location and app tracking if you want.
    - geraneum 5y ago
      I am not if Google (Facebook, etc.) always respect the location tracking preferences of users. https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/27/18114111/google-location-tracking-gdpr-challenge-european-deceptive https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/27/18114111/google-location... https://apnews.com/article/north-america-science-technology-business-ap-top-news-828aefab64d4411bac257a07c1af0ecb https://apnews.com/article/north-america-science-technology-... https://www.businessinsider.com/google-location-data-violates-user-trust-nothing-will-happen-2018-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/google-location-data-violate...
      - ac29 5y ago
oscargrouch 5y ago
The minute you buy something, what you do with it has to do with your rights and not the rights of the company that created that thing. I don't get it this line of argumentation. Imagine someone was kidnapped against their will, and once we were to discuss the rights of the person being kidnapped the person kidnapped with stockholm syndrome have argued in favor of the kidnapper, as if it was within his rights to break its own rights. Because this is what you are advocating here. That a company should have the right even to break your rights because they are a "good willing actor" or that they are doing it thinking in your well being (which you are inclined to think with tons of well crafted and manipulative propaganda towards this goal). And its even worse because, its not the third party that its at fault according to your point of view, but the government that is trespassing by trying to force with laws, approved in a democratic regime, that your rights have to be respected and there are limits into how they can limit you or forbid what you can do with something that you bought and therefore its your property.
- bengale 5y ago
  I don’t think the laboured kidnap scenario is useful. Neither is the song and dance about democratic regimes, I’m not arguing the government shouldn’t regulate, I’m saying that I don’t think they should regulate like this. But I do think you should be able to do whatever you want with what you purchased. I just don’t think that includes forcing them, or using the government to force them, to make changes to their software to suit you. So yes run your own OS, but if you bought a product and expect its software to do things its creators are clear it doesn’t do, then that’s on you.
  - oscargrouch 5y ago
    > So yes run your own OS, but if you bought a product and expect its software to do things its creators are clear it doesn’t do, then that’s on you. That's the point being argued here. They doing all they can to not let this happen. You are saying as if there's still an option to do this. It gets even worse, because inside the OS, you are their lap dog. They are enforcing options to curb any form of competition. Technology is being forcefully crippled so they can resort monopolistic forms of control. And with the other hand they teach you to like it in a paternalistic way.
snowflake_ptr 5y ago
> I really don’t like the idea of the government dictating what a company does with it’s software Part of what most people (including me) expect a government to do is to help protect consumers from malicious actions by companies. That's why we have things like ingredient labels, anti-anti-competitive regulations, the SEC, truth-in-advertising requirements, and many, many more things. This kind of thing requires giving a small amount of additional power to the government in exchange for significant benefits to consumers. This is generally a good trade, and it certainly is in this case, because Apple's locking down of their hardware and software are malicious actions toward consumers - they serve only the good of Apple (and before you start raising objections about possible security benefits for consumers - it's trivial to design systems that give almost exactly the same security guarantees to consumers while also giving them the freedom to do whatever they like).
IndySun 5y ago
>I really don’t like the idea of the government dictating what a company does with it’s software. Never ever understand this angle. Don't let a government put their toe in the business even when it's utterly unfair to the customer, the environment. Why not? The artificially ginormous and obscenely wealthy 'company' that brags about welfare, rights, privacy, can already almost do literally anything it wants, data mining, price gouging, holding back innovation, monopoly, screwing its users for every penny its AI can scrape from your children to your grandmother... stop me when I reach your melting point...
- bengale 5y ago
  I never said the government should get involved in anything. I actually said: >However as far as installing your own OS on the hardware, that seems like something we could require without a downside. I just don't think they should be involved in dictating how software works at the level a lot of people seem to be hoping for. Getting the government involved in this stuff brings a lot of negatives along with it, so it needs a damn good reason to go that far in my opinion.
  - IndySun 5y ago
    What I said and what you are saying, no person could argue against. On paper, it looks great. But look at reality, and what we do have and it doesn't look so useful a list of ideals anymore. I am very much against Gov toes. But it really is way past the time something needs to be reined in. Nothing is being done, or has been done, for decades and hope for change to come from the people 'up', has been sold for short term, looping, distraction. To think my children's children will no longer use the word 'search', they will use the word 'google' but google is google, its not searching. This is the reality. Politicians are in their pockets so deep before too long there will no one with any power, in power. That's what I see. It makes my skin crawl when Tim Cook talks about how green the Apple Campus is. This is base irony, and not enough people bat eyelids, imho.
LudwigNagasena 5y ago
> I really don’t like the idea of the government dictating what a company does with it’s software And I really don’t like the idea that an entity more powerful than most countries should be able to do whatever it wants and be unaccountable to the public just because it is not called “government”.
- PostThisTooFast 5y ago
  How is that relevant?
kazinator 5y ago
Software, especially closed source, literally dictates what your device does, and you don't know what most of that is. But you're sure that you wouldn't want the government regulating it any way ... whatever it is doing.

wayoutthere 5y ago

In my opinion, a large portion of the benefit I get from iOS is due to the fact it’s a secure, locked down platform. If there were a way to run unsigned code on iOS, people would build exploits around it and malicious apps would just tell you to enable whatever “advanced mode” or be able to install a bootloader that transparently loads the OS but with a malware layer between the bootloader and the kernel. By disallowing unsigned code, these less-technical exploits become impossible, which also limits the blast radius of any exploits that are found. If I want general purpose computing, I have other devices that allow more freedom (like a laptop or cloud server). I don’t need to be able to do everything with one device.

ThePhysicist 5y ago
It's fine if you want to run iOS or iPadOS on your device, that shouldn't exclude other people from installing an OS of their own choosing though.
- judge2020 5y ago
  I would argue that being able to easily do that would be a security issue in itself - imagine an evil maid attack that is just installing iOS with a change that sends all keychain items to a remote server or makes it easy to obtain the encryption key that protects all user data.
  - fartcannon 5y ago
    Since iOS isn't flawless and it is ubiquitous across Apple devices, think of the damage that can be done by a single virus. iOS lacks diversity and is therefore a fantastic target for malware.
  - mindslight 5y ago
    As these systems rely on trusted hardware, it's straightforward to do things like require the device be plugged in and in some low-level diag mode for 72 hours before allowing the root signing key to be changed. Trusted hardware could be interesting if companies actually developed it to be legible to the user-owner, rather than their current approach of doing the bare minimum to bake in their own fixed root keys.
    - warkdarrior 5y ago
      Next headline would be: "Apple cripple iPads, force Linux installs to take 72 hours"
      - bengale 5y ago
        It's becoming more and more clear that 'tech journalism' is essentially the same thing as the celebrity news rags.
        Tsiklon 5y ago
        Some tech news websites like The Register are completely self aware of that fact and lean into it completely and utterly
bengale 5y ago
I’m of the same opinion, and I wouldn’t be looking to install a different OS personally. But I think it would be a good general rule that that you can run whatever software you want on your own hardware, but not expect the manufacturing to help you, just not actively hinder you.
- msbarnett 5y ago
  Seems like “not expect the manufacturing to help you, just not actively hinder you” risks a lot of “interesting” interpretations. Is my Microwave’s manufacturer actively hindering me by sealing access to its firmware behind a wall of plastic with no external port? If it’s not, could Apple just remove the iPhone’s port, throw a wireless charger in the box, and call it a day?
  - fartcannon 5y ago
    Yes the microwave should have accessible firmware. All electronics should have accessible firmware, software and hardware. Because it prevents abuse of powers (like Epson printers, for example) and, most importantly, it prevents waste. Apple, due to its war on repair, locked software and influence among its peers is an environmental catastrophe.

judge2020 5y ago

You can install anything on your hardware you want, assuming you find a way to do that - apple doesn’t have an obligation to make it easy, but they can’t go after you legally for using https://projectsandcastle.org/ https://projectsandcastle.org/ on a supported device. That’s the thing - I bought a completely locked down device where a central authority dictates what can be installed since I trust them to verify the app’s capabilities and the source’s identity. I know the software isn’t impenetrable nor apple infallible, but it reduces my threat model a lot compared to if I were running Android.

wintermutestwin 5y ago
This makes no sense to me. I was under the impression that Android is essentially spyware for google.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ac29 5y ago
  You don't need a Google account to use an Android phone, and even if you choose to use one, you can turn off sensitive things like location and app tracking if you want.
  - geraneum 5y ago
    I am not if Google (Facebook, etc.) always respect the location tracking preferences of users. https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/27/18114111/google-location-tracking-gdpr-challenge-european-deceptive https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/27/18114111/google-location... https://apnews.com/article/north-america-science-technology-business-ap-top-news-828aefab64d4411bac257a07c1af0ecb https://apnews.com/article/north-america-science-technology-... https://www.businessinsider.com/google-location-data-violates-user-trust-nothing-will-happen-2018-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/google-location-data-violate...
    - ac29 5y ago

oscargrouch 5y ago

The minute you buy something, what you do with it has to do with your rights and not the rights of the company that created that thing. I don't get it this line of argumentation. Imagine someone was kidnapped against their will, and once we were to discuss the rights of the person being kidnapped the person kidnapped with stockholm syndrome have argued in favor of the kidnapper, as if it was within his rights to break its own rights. Because this is what you are advocating here. That a company should have the right even to break your rights because they are a "good willing actor" or that they are doing it thinking in your well being (which you are inclined to think with tons of well crafted and manipulative propaganda towards this goal). And its even worse because, its not the third party that its at fault according to your point of view, but the government that is trespassing by trying to force with laws, approved in a democratic regime, that your rights have to be respected and there are limits into how they can limit you or forbid what you can do with something that you bought and therefore its your property.

bengale 5y ago
I don’t think the laboured kidnap scenario is useful. Neither is the song and dance about democratic regimes, I’m not arguing the government shouldn’t regulate, I’m saying that I don’t think they should regulate like this. But I do think you should be able to do whatever you want with what you purchased. I just don’t think that includes forcing them, or using the government to force them, to make changes to their software to suit you. So yes run your own OS, but if you bought a product and expect its software to do things its creators are clear it doesn’t do, then that’s on you.
- oscargrouch 5y ago
  > So yes run your own OS, but if you bought a product and expect its software to do things its creators are clear it doesn’t do, then that’s on you. That's the point being argued here. They doing all they can to not let this happen. You are saying as if there's still an option to do this. It gets even worse, because inside the OS, you are their lap dog. They are enforcing options to curb any form of competition. Technology is being forcefully crippled so they can resort monopolistic forms of control. And with the other hand they teach you to like it in a paternalistic way.

snowflake_ptr 5y ago

> I really don’t like the idea of the government dictating what a company does with it’s software Part of what most people (including me) expect a government to do is to help protect consumers from malicious actions by companies. That's why we have things like ingredient labels, anti-anti-competitive regulations, the SEC, truth-in-advertising requirements, and many, many more things. This kind of thing requires giving a small amount of additional power to the government in exchange for significant benefits to consumers. This is generally a good trade, and it certainly is in this case, because Apple's locking down of their hardware and software are malicious actions toward consumers - they serve only the good of Apple (and before you start raising objections about possible security benefits for consumers - it's trivial to design systems that give almost exactly the same security guarantees to consumers while also giving them the freedom to do whatever they like).

IndySun 5y ago

>I really don’t like the idea of the government dictating what a company does with it’s software. Never ever understand this angle. Don't let a government put their toe in the business even when it's utterly unfair to the customer, the environment. Why not? The artificially ginormous and obscenely wealthy 'company' that brags about welfare, rights, privacy, can already almost do literally anything it wants, data mining, price gouging, holding back innovation, monopoly, screwing its users for every penny its AI can scrape from your children to your grandmother... stop me when I reach your melting point...

bengale 5y ago
I never said the government should get involved in anything. I actually said: >However as far as installing your own OS on the hardware, that seems like something we could require without a downside. I just don't think they should be involved in dictating how software works at the level a lot of people seem to be hoping for. Getting the government involved in this stuff brings a lot of negatives along with it, so it needs a damn good reason to go that far in my opinion.
- IndySun 5y ago
  What I said and what you are saying, no person could argue against. On paper, it looks great. But look at reality, and what we do have and it doesn't look so useful a list of ideals anymore. I am very much against Gov toes. But it really is way past the time something needs to be reined in. Nothing is being done, or has been done, for decades and hope for change to come from the people 'up', has been sold for short term, looping, distraction. To think my children's children will no longer use the word 'search', they will use the word 'google' but google is google, its not searching. This is the reality. Politicians are in their pockets so deep before too long there will no one with any power, in power. That's what I see. It makes my skin crawl when Tim Cook talks about how green the Apple Campus is. This is base irony, and not enough people bat eyelids, imho.

LudwigNagasena 5y ago

> I really don’t like the idea of the government dictating what a company does with it’s software And I really don’t like the idea that an entity more powerful than most countries should be able to do whatever it wants and be unaccountable to the public just because it is not called “government”.

PostThisTooFast 5y ago
How is that relevant?

kazinator 5y ago

Software, especially closed source, literally dictates what your device does, and you don't know what most of that is. But you're sure that you wouldn't want the government regulating it any way ... whatever it is doing.