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> Second, trans activists can not understand that there is a huge number of women who are not comfortable with the fact that anyone can say they identify as a w

by geofft 5y ago

> Second, trans activists can not understand that there is a huge number of women who are not comfortable with the fact that anyone can say they identify as a woman and do things like observe them naked. How is this argument different from, say, "There are a huge number of men who aren't comfortable with homosexuals seeing their nakedness in public restrooms and changing rooms, and if they won't take medical treatment to get rid of their unnatural attractions, they need to be separated from society"? Like the whole thing hackers are supposed to be good at is recognizing patterns and coming up with abstractions. How is this not just another instance of the same class of mistreatment Alan Turing suffered?

dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
> How is this argument different from, say, "There are a huge number of men who aren't comfortable with homosexuals seeing their nakedness in public restrooms and changing rooms, and if they won't take medical treatment to get rid of their unnatural attractions, they need to be separated from society"? The difference is that I said the equivalent of the first part of the sentence, whereas the part "and if they won't take medical treatment to get rid of their unnatural attractions, they need to be separated from society" has been added by you, and this is happening regularly in these discussions because people feel the main argument is too weak so they try to add made up things. If we really want to solve this problem instead of creating confusion, we should really concentrate on the finding out some solutions rather than mischaracterizing the other side. Because, as far as possible solutions go, I haven't heard of many.
- geofft 5y ago
  That's why I said these are two different cases of the same pattern, not the exact same thing. You're right that they are not the same thing. But we found a working solution to the previous problem: gay people get to be gay, and people who worry about gay people checking them out in bathrooms and in changing rooms have to deal with it. It's not a balanced solution, in the sense that it didn't make the two sides of that debate equally unhappy, but from all accounts, it seems to work just fine. The same solution seems like it should apply to the present problem, too. That's why I think these two cases, even though they are different cases, have similarities.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
    But the "problem" you describe was never a problem, hence it required no solution. You don't have your orientation written all over you, so gay and straight people use the same public spaces and there is absolutely no problem. There was no debate about it because it was not needed. I remember I was in a public restroom in a mall once and a strange man approached me while I was peeing, he was literally looking at my penis. I was very surprised, but didn't feel really threatened, just a bit uncomfortable. But I can imagine being a woman in a similar situation and it doesn't feel like right. The core of the problem is that the victims of vast majority of sexual assaults are women, and for some of them this problem is very real.

by geofft 5y ago

dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago

> How is this argument different from, say, "There are a huge number of men who aren't comfortable with homosexuals seeing their nakedness in public restrooms and changing rooms, and if they won't take medical treatment to get rid of their unnatural attractions, they need to be separated from society"? The difference is that I said the equivalent of the first part of the sentence, whereas the part "and if they won't take medical treatment to get rid of their unnatural attractions, they need to be separated from society" has been added by you, and this is happening regularly in these discussions because people feel the main argument is too weak so they try to add made up things. If we really want to solve this problem instead of creating confusion, we should really concentrate on the finding out some solutions rather than mischaracterizing the other side. Because, as far as possible solutions go, I haven't heard of many.

geofft 5y ago
That's why I said these are two different cases of the same pattern, not the exact same thing. You're right that they are not the same thing. But we found a working solution to the previous problem: gay people get to be gay, and people who worry about gay people checking them out in bathrooms and in changing rooms have to deal with it. It's not a balanced solution, in the sense that it didn't make the two sides of that debate equally unhappy, but from all accounts, it seems to work just fine. The same solution seems like it should apply to the present problem, too. That's why I think these two cases, even though they are different cases, have similarities.
- dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
  But the "problem" you describe was never a problem, hence it required no solution. You don't have your orientation written all over you, so gay and straight people use the same public spaces and there is absolutely no problem. There was no debate about it because it was not needed. I remember I was in a public restroom in a mall once and a strange man approached me while I was peeing, he was literally looking at my penis. I was very surprised, but didn't feel really threatened, just a bit uncomfortable. But I can imagine being a woman in a similar situation and it doesn't feel like right. The core of the problem is that the victims of vast majority of sexual assaults are women, and for some of them this problem is very real.