4 ms·

are they? It seems like russia and china are far less militarily destructive as an ally than anyone else, and much more stable. this might sound like a propagan

are they? It seems like russia and china are far less militarily destructive as an ally than anyone else, and much more stable. this might sound like a propaganda talking point, but it's true! sure, russia annex part of ukraine a few years ago. but it hasn't attempted to crush and destroy nearly every country in north africa and the middle east

chrisseaton 5y ago
If you had to be choose to be arrested in Russia, or the US, right now, what would you choose? ... I thought so.
- adsfasdfadsf222 5y ago
  I think one would be more likely to be shot to death in the street in the US than Russia or China. Especially if I was darker than a paper bag. (edit: when considering being shot by a police officer or other government employee, not any shooting). The area where it does become a discussion is in terms of political prisoners. in the US, political dissent is punished in a decentralised way; people lose their bank accounts, access to payment providers, are erased from social media, etc. This is framed in the idea that large corporations have the 'freedom' to not do business with you. in russia or china, it is certainly more direct. In specific cases we have different social constructs due to propaganda. Edward Snowden or Julian Assange are of course traitors, but Navalny is a the hero of the hour. the US state department will criticise any third world country, but they run secret CIA prisons in places like guatanemo bay, kandahar . Why does Guantanamo bay exist? It is totally illegal under both US and international law. Why does the CIA arrest people from third party countries and put them in infinite detention? What about that plane that was forced to land in Belarus, a tragedy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident My central point is that a lot of your ideas here are US centric, perhaps Eurocentric. Most other countries are not actually that bad relative to USA or Europe, it is just that there is immense propaganda to erase any wrongdoing of USA/EU from public memory. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/12/russia.israel https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/12/russia.israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 for instance, you can't even find above article on google if you google "ukraine shoot down russian plane"
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    > in the US, political dissent is punished in a decentralised way; people lose their bank accounts, access to payment providers, are erased from social media, etc Did Biden suffer any of this when he was challenging Trump? What does someone who challenges Putin suffer?
    - adsfasdfadsf222 5y ago
      Biden is however the establishment. Trump is the outsider which has had these things occur. This is really not within the sphere of 'dissent' in any case, as we discuss here major politicians. https://thehill.com/policy/finance/banking-financial-institutions/535282-florida-bank-says-it-has-closed-trumps-accounts https://thehill.com/policy/finance/banking-financial-institu... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_use_by_Donald_Trump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_use_by_Donald_Tru... If we wanted to look at examples of more small scale political dissent in USA: https://gazette.com/news/reporter-who-broke-story-on-clinton-lynch-tarmac-meeting-found-dead/article_bd0ec09a-cdf0-11eb-989f-3ff9f4912116.html https://gazette.com/news/reporter-who-broke-story-on-clinton... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_(journalist)#Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_(journalist)#... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Valley_shootout#The_shootout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Valley_shootout#The_sh...
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        > Biden is however the establishment. Ok so are anti-establishment politicians in the US targetted? Such as someone from who wants to deconstruct the establishment like Sanders? Oh he's treated with relative respect and allowed to campaign? Oh ok... so that's unlike China and Russia then?
        adsfasdfadsf222 5y ago
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
If we're talking about the US over the last 75 years, let's talk about Russia over the last 75 years. That means things like Hungary 1956 and Czechoslovakia 1968. As for China, the rub on them isn't how they treat their allies. It's how they treat their own citizens. Between famines and Red Terror purges, China is not the model I want.
- adsfasdfadsf222 5y ago
  Yes, but I wasn't talking about the US over the last 75 years. I was responding in particular to this: "But at the same time everyone knows if they had work with one ally it'd be the US because they're less terrible than everyone else." Looking at the next 75years, China and Russia do seem like more reasonable allies for a number of states. Most of the world has observed that if they don't have their own nuclear weapons, they are liable to be the next libya/iraq/afghanistan.. wait the list goes on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_conflicts_involving_the_United_States#21st-century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_conflicts_involv...
esyir 5y ago
So China, which is currently bullying all its neighbours in southeast Asia, most of which have good ties with the US? The same China that constantly pokes at the boundaries of every single nation it borders? And Russia, which literally annexed a neighbouring country. I'll take my chances with the US, thank you very much.

chrisseaton 5y ago

If you had to be choose to be arrested in Russia, or the US, right now, what would you choose? ... I thought so.

adsfasdfadsf222 5y ago
I think one would be more likely to be shot to death in the street in the US than Russia or China. Especially if I was darker than a paper bag. (edit: when considering being shot by a police officer or other government employee, not any shooting). The area where it does become a discussion is in terms of political prisoners. in the US, political dissent is punished in a decentralised way; people lose their bank accounts, access to payment providers, are erased from social media, etc. This is framed in the idea that large corporations have the 'freedom' to not do business with you. in russia or china, it is certainly more direct. In specific cases we have different social constructs due to propaganda. Edward Snowden or Julian Assange are of course traitors, but Navalny is a the hero of the hour. the US state department will criticise any third world country, but they run secret CIA prisons in places like guatanemo bay, kandahar . Why does Guantanamo bay exist? It is totally illegal under both US and international law. Why does the CIA arrest people from third party countries and put them in infinite detention? What about that plane that was forced to land in Belarus, a tragedy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident My central point is that a lot of your ideas here are US centric, perhaps Eurocentric. Most other countries are not actually that bad relative to USA or Europe, it is just that there is immense propaganda to erase any wrongdoing of USA/EU from public memory. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/12/russia.israel https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/12/russia.israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 for instance, you can't even find above article on google if you google "ukraine shoot down russian plane"
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > in the US, political dissent is punished in a decentralised way; people lose their bank accounts, access to payment providers, are erased from social media, etc Did Biden suffer any of this when he was challenging Trump? What does someone who challenges Putin suffer?
  - adsfasdfadsf222 5y ago
    Biden is however the establishment. Trump is the outsider which has had these things occur. This is really not within the sphere of 'dissent' in any case, as we discuss here major politicians. https://thehill.com/policy/finance/banking-financial-institutions/535282-florida-bank-says-it-has-closed-trumps-accounts https://thehill.com/policy/finance/banking-financial-institu... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_use_by_Donald_Trump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_use_by_Donald_Tru... If we wanted to look at examples of more small scale political dissent in USA: https://gazette.com/news/reporter-who-broke-story-on-clinton-lynch-tarmac-meeting-found-dead/article_bd0ec09a-cdf0-11eb-989f-3ff9f4912116.html https://gazette.com/news/reporter-who-broke-story-on-clinton... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_(journalist)#Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_(journalist)#... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Valley_shootout#The_shootout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Valley_shootout#The_sh...
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      > Biden is however the establishment. Ok so are anti-establishment politicians in the US targetted? Such as someone from who wants to deconstruct the establishment like Sanders? Oh he's treated with relative respect and allowed to campaign? Oh ok... so that's unlike China and Russia then?
      - adsfasdfadsf222 5y ago

AnimalMuppet 5y ago

If we're talking about the US over the last 75 years, let's talk about Russia over the last 75 years. That means things like Hungary 1956 and Czechoslovakia 1968. As for China, the rub on them isn't how they treat their allies. It's how they treat their own citizens. Between famines and Red Terror purges, China is not the model I want.

adsfasdfadsf222 5y ago
Yes, but I wasn't talking about the US over the last 75 years. I was responding in particular to this: "But at the same time everyone knows if they had work with one ally it'd be the US because they're less terrible than everyone else." Looking at the next 75years, China and Russia do seem like more reasonable allies for a number of states. Most of the world has observed that if they don't have their own nuclear weapons, they are liable to be the next libya/iraq/afghanistan.. wait the list goes on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_conflicts_involving_the_United_States#21st-century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_conflicts_involv...

esyir 5y ago

So China, which is currently bullying all its neighbours in southeast Asia, most of which have good ties with the US? The same China that constantly pokes at the boundaries of every single nation it borders? And Russia, which literally annexed a neighbouring country. I'll take my chances with the US, thank you very much.