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> Ban anyone without a minimum teaching experience of x years from participating on boards Why do you think you need to be a teacher to direct how our schools

> Ban anyone without a minimum teaching experience of x years from participating on boards Why do you think you need to be a teacher to direct how our schools are run? Seems technocratic and anti-democratic. The same way we have civilian control of the military, we should have civilian control of our schools. Did you know in the UK there is actually a structure called governors to ensure that schools are being directed by the community, not by education insiders?

hef19898 5y ago
In the military, there are civilians at the top. Right below them, it's career military. Having these standards set by involving parents at a local level is ripe for disaster. As is having local sheriffs, without proper training, elected but I digress. Curriculums should be as standardized as possible. That makes everything comparable. It would be enough to have have the top brass of education elected. You can even make the curriculum part of election campaigns.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  I can understand your point of view and to be honest I somewhat agree with it... But at the same time it sounds technocratic and anti-democratic, right? The teachers' job is to teach as the people want. It's not their job to set policy. It's to get on and teach as directed. Do you have a way you square that in your mind, as I'm struggling myself?
  - hef19898 5y ago
    Well, you have elected government that sets curriculums. And the way school systems are set up. Either at state level (Germany) or federal level (France). Then it is up to teachers to teach that curriculum, find someone ambitious enough to become a school principal to run a particular school. All while coping with the stuff the ministry comes up with. Sure, some teachers go on to set policies ay the ministry. Those are actively teaching anymore. Of course there is so much more nuance to it, but in a nutshell that's it. You have an elected government setting policies. You have public servants acting on those. Democratic and surely somewhat technocratic. But it works.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      If a majority of parents in your town think it should be done differently, what moral explanation do you have for denying them that? (Again, I don't necessarily agree with devolving as far as possible, but isn't it philosophically hard to argue against?)
      - hef19898 5y ago
        Through state elections. Vote for a government that changes policies. Like every other parent in every other community. I think the main difference is, that Europeans i. general are less individualistic than Americans. Usually, we just accept that kind of things. Except for a small minority. Philosophically, I would say that a country or nation can only be successful if some common things are equal for everyone. Letting individual groups opt out and in of stuff as they want, just destroys the overall community. And you end up with "haves" picking the cherries while the "have-nots" are left with crap. And nothing in between.
        chrisseaton 5y ago
        But why is the state the right level for decision making? Why is decision making at a lower level wrong? And why is decision making at a higher level not better? Why did you pick 'state' level and go with that?
        hef19898 5y ago
        State or federal doesn't matter. County is too small, when town A has a different curriculum than town B 29 km away things break down. Maybe town B is richer, then town B might not want to fund schools in town A, leaving those desolate. But maybe town As curriculum is better suited for higher education, then what? There ia no silver bullet, but going with stuff that works it would be centralised at a certain level. Se goes for law enforcement, emergency services, military, health care... Otherwise there wont be any social fairness left.
        5y ago
  - eldavido 5y ago
    FYI there is an entire book at deals with this topic called "10% less democracy". Basic idea is that the US has become too democratic. Places like Singapore have a different attitude toward this that's worth understanding (not saying it's right, just different and worth understanding, like comparing OSX to Windows). There are parts of the US government that operate this way, like the Federal Reserve. One interesting proposal from the book is having congress pass a tax law that's very simple, something like "the top 10% of income-earners should pay 15% of all revenue" and giving the IRS (career tax experts) much more leeway to write the tax code, in a way that complies with the stated (democratically accountable) objectives, but maximizes simplicity and ease of enforcement. I think there's something to that. There's a place for technocrats. But in today's extremely "power to the people" moment that gives us Trump and Sanders, it seems like a harder sell.
    - hef19898 5y ago
      The US seem to be very undemocratic on the one hand, and way too democratic on the other. I guess that makes for a dangerous mixture. Examples: The election system makes it intentionally hard to vote, e.g. election day isn't on weekends nor is it a public holiday. Limited number of voting places. And then you have elected law enforcement and elected judges.
BeFlatXIII 5y ago
The problem with civilian control of schools is that it leads to asinine arguments over things like whether to teach sex ed at all or whether creationism belongs in the science classroom. Even in less extreme examples, it will lead to parents pushing for counterproductive and unnecessary reforms that make sense to the layman.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  Ultimately the schools are there to serve the people, so if the people want arguments over things like whether to teach sex ed then isn't that their prerogative? I know it's a problem and I don't agree with some sides of that argument myself... but in a democracy aren't these issues supposed to be devolved to the demos? Isn't that the whole point? Do the teachers 'know better'? Who's determining who knows better?
- giantg2 5y ago
  "it will lead to parents pushing for counterproductive and unnecessary reforms that make sense to the layman." This is basically what happens in all areas when practicing democracy, right? For example, the president is only elected because a substantial portion of the population agree with their positions, or more likely the positions/identity of their party, from their prospectives as a laymans.

hef19898 5y ago

In the military, there are civilians at the top. Right below them, it's career military. Having these standards set by involving parents at a local level is ripe for disaster. As is having local sheriffs, without proper training, elected but I digress. Curriculums should be as standardized as possible. That makes everything comparable. It would be enough to have have the top brass of education elected. You can even make the curriculum part of election campaigns.

chrisseaton 5y ago
I can understand your point of view and to be honest I somewhat agree with it... But at the same time it sounds technocratic and anti-democratic, right? The teachers' job is to teach as the people want. It's not their job to set policy. It's to get on and teach as directed. Do you have a way you square that in your mind, as I'm struggling myself?
- hef19898 5y ago
  Well, you have elected government that sets curriculums. And the way school systems are set up. Either at state level (Germany) or federal level (France). Then it is up to teachers to teach that curriculum, find someone ambitious enough to become a school principal to run a particular school. All while coping with the stuff the ministry comes up with. Sure, some teachers go on to set policies ay the ministry. Those are actively teaching anymore. Of course there is so much more nuance to it, but in a nutshell that's it. You have an elected government setting policies. You have public servants acting on those. Democratic and surely somewhat technocratic. But it works.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    If a majority of parents in your town think it should be done differently, what moral explanation do you have for denying them that? (Again, I don't necessarily agree with devolving as far as possible, but isn't it philosophically hard to argue against?)
    - hef19898 5y ago
      Through state elections. Vote for a government that changes policies. Like every other parent in every other community. I think the main difference is, that Europeans i. general are less individualistic than Americans. Usually, we just accept that kind of things. Except for a small minority. Philosophically, I would say that a country or nation can only be successful if some common things are equal for everyone. Letting individual groups opt out and in of stuff as they want, just destroys the overall community. And you end up with "haves" picking the cherries while the "have-nots" are left with crap. And nothing in between.
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        But why is the state the right level for decision making? Why is decision making at a lower level wrong? And why is decision making at a higher level not better? Why did you pick 'state' level and go with that?
        hef19898 5y ago
        State or federal doesn't matter. County is too small, when town A has a different curriculum than town B 29 km away things break down. Maybe town B is richer, then town B might not want to fund schools in town A, leaving those desolate. But maybe town As curriculum is better suited for higher education, then what? There ia no silver bullet, but going with stuff that works it would be centralised at a certain level. Se goes for law enforcement, emergency services, military, health care... Otherwise there wont be any social fairness left.
        5y ago
- eldavido 5y ago
  FYI there is an entire book at deals with this topic called "10% less democracy". Basic idea is that the US has become too democratic. Places like Singapore have a different attitude toward this that's worth understanding (not saying it's right, just different and worth understanding, like comparing OSX to Windows). There are parts of the US government that operate this way, like the Federal Reserve. One interesting proposal from the book is having congress pass a tax law that's very simple, something like "the top 10% of income-earners should pay 15% of all revenue" and giving the IRS (career tax experts) much more leeway to write the tax code, in a way that complies with the stated (democratically accountable) objectives, but maximizes simplicity and ease of enforcement. I think there's something to that. There's a place for technocrats. But in today's extremely "power to the people" moment that gives us Trump and Sanders, it seems like a harder sell.
  - hef19898 5y ago
    The US seem to be very undemocratic on the one hand, and way too democratic on the other. I guess that makes for a dangerous mixture. Examples: The election system makes it intentionally hard to vote, e.g. election day isn't on weekends nor is it a public holiday. Limited number of voting places. And then you have elected law enforcement and elected judges.

BeFlatXIII 5y ago

The problem with civilian control of schools is that it leads to asinine arguments over things like whether to teach sex ed at all or whether creationism belongs in the science classroom. Even in less extreme examples, it will lead to parents pushing for counterproductive and unnecessary reforms that make sense to the layman.

chrisseaton 5y ago
Ultimately the schools are there to serve the people, so if the people want arguments over things like whether to teach sex ed then isn't that their prerogative? I know it's a problem and I don't agree with some sides of that argument myself... but in a democracy aren't these issues supposed to be devolved to the demos? Isn't that the whole point? Do the teachers 'know better'? Who's determining who knows better?
giantg2 5y ago
"it will lead to parents pushing for counterproductive and unnecessary reforms that make sense to the layman." This is basically what happens in all areas when practicing democracy, right? For example, the president is only elected because a substantial portion of the population agree with their positions, or more likely the positions/identity of their party, from their prospectives as a laymans.