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I never understood the good effects of American hegemony until they started breaking down. While I can’t approve of the evils, e.g. Iraq War, creating an intern

I never understood the good effects of American hegemony until they started breaking down. While I can’t approve of the evils, e.g. Iraq War, creating an international security order has enabled secure trade between countries and continents that has brought 75 years of peace to Europe, allowed the rise of China, and brought billions out of poverty by removing many of the limitations of geography. That is a great good, and it’s falling apart. The near future is going to get scary unless everyone begins cooperating in a way they don’t seem willing to do.

chrisseaton 5y ago
> I never understood the good effects of American hegemony until they started breaking down. This is a one-sentence forward to some future history of the 21st century yet to be written. Can we please get this engraved on the headstone of the millennial generation?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ludocode 5y ago
  It's not clear whether you mean it this way or not, but the impression I get from your post is that you're implying millenials are to blame for the downfall of America. It's hard not to take offense to that.
  - AmpsterMan 5y ago
    I understood that more as the poster thinking that the millenial generation is the first one fully situated in the post American hegemony world.
  - Lammy 5y ago
    No need to take offense when Millennials control such a small share of wealth and political power, though I can't decide if that makes it better, or worse. I can't figure out how to deep link my Data Cube, but you can see from the Office of Personnel Management that the Federal workforce is old: https://www.fedscope.opm.gov/ https://www.fedscope.opm.gov/ Screenshot for those who don't want to wrangle the Data Cube UI: https://i.imgur.com/0XQ1LEj.png https://i.imgur.com/0XQ1LEj.png
- nyokodo 5y ago
  > Can we please get this engraved on the headstone of the millennial generation? The order started breaking down in the 90s when the oldest Millennials were in elementary school, accelerated in the 00s when the youngest Millennials were in preschool, and was formalized in 2016 mostly by older generations. The big problem that I see is that while bits and pieces get taught the artificial trade security brought on by the Bretton Woods order were never taught! I only just started learning about it recently and I'm a bit pissed off that this wasn't in 20th Century History 101.
jollybean 5y ago
People have no intuition for the incredible bubble we live in, the historical uniqueness of it, and the immense work it takes to keep it alive. The living memory of the post-WW2 order is fading and most people basically don't understand that we're living in that house, that it's very real, and that it takes maintenance. Peace isn't the absence of war, it's the balance of power, and the recognition that not all powers are the same. Without US relationship with Egypt, it would fall and with it the Suez, and they'd be at war with Israel very quickly. 'Real War'. Without US support of House of Saud and 5th fleet, Saudi Arabia and Iran would be probably at war. And that's just one region. It's complicated and there is no way 'not to play the game' as in a power vacuum it will definitely be total chaos - so we have to figure out how to balance the power in some reasonable way.
- rapind 5y ago
  The king would say “the peasants have no idea how good they have it”, and would be right in many ways, but is this the best we can do?
  - jollybean 5y ago
    I would disagree with that analogy. Your neighbours with the biggest houses, that they built themselves, have a lot of tools and even a few weapons. They have a pretty good peace between them, and sometimes intervene in domestic disputes elsewhere. If they didn't patrol the roads then it would be way too dangerous to go out on them, and many of your neighbours would be in vendetta wars. The best thing you can do is act responsibly, and join the group of responsible acting neighbours. They frankly don't really have a lot of interest in patrolling the streets in general. It makes them feel good but it's really, really costly.
- abhishekjha 5y ago
  You shouldn’t have a problem once new players enter and want a share of that pie. Afterall its all good.
  - jollybean 5y ago
10000truths 5y ago
This is a naively exceptionalist view of America‘s role in the world. > enabled secure trade between countries Unless you’re Venezuela, Iran or (until recently) Cuba, or anyone that didn’t play ball with the US in the Cold War era and after. Then you get sanctioned to hell and your ships seized for daring to trade with anyone else. > brought 75 years of peace to Europe If you’re referring to WWII, the US had very little role in ending the war in Europe. > allowed the rise of China It is Chinese economic policy that allowed the rise of China. The US literally engaged in a trade war against China. > brought billions out of poverty by removing many of the limitations of geography Economic globalization was brought on by the development of nuclear weapons, not by the generosity of any individual country.
- hcurtiss 5y ago
  > If you’re referring to WWII, the US had very little role in ending the war in Europe. Wow. Except, you know, for Normandy.
  - hef19898 5y ago
    Which included British, Canadian and French forces. Still, US military contribution was bigger than in WW1. The main US contribution was industrial and financial, the blood in Europe was mostly from the USSR.
  - adsfasdfadsf222 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the...
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > the US had very little role in ending the war in Europe This is bonkers-tier delusional.
  - syops 5y ago
    The war in Europe was won with Soviet blood. The failure of the Germans to take Moscow in 1941 effectively ended any chance of a German victory. While the U.S. made major financial and material contributions it's clear the Soviets were going to win the war before the Americans entered it.
adsfasdfadsf222 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_19... US CIA backed murder of 500k to 1.2m indonesians in 1965 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_state-sponsored_terrorism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_state-sponso... "The United States has at various times in recent history provided support to terrorist and paramilitary organizations around the world. It has also provided assistance to numerous authoritarian regimes that have used state terrorism as a tool of repression" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia "they werne't civilians, they were policemen, promise!" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinwiesenlager https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinwiesenlager operating their own concentration camps, not reporting the deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_Agent_Orange_on_the_Vietnamese_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_Agent_Orange_on_the... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_U.S._drone_strikes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_U.S._... it is still not clear why USA completely destroyed libya either https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_... most importantly of all though it is unclear why the USA invaded middle east and directly caused the deaths of millions of people, and has engaged in 20 years of non stop warfare. 23 years if you count yugoslavian intervention.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  Everyone knows the US has done terrible things. But at the same time everyone knows if they had work with one ally it'd be the US because they're less terrible than everyone else. I'm not American but I know if I had to put my life in the hands of one other country than my own it'd definitely be the US, and I'd be pretty confident in doing that.
  - adsfasdfadsf222 5y ago
croes 5y ago
That is the same kind of peace that the Roman Empire brought.
mrtksn 5y ago
>That is a great good, and it’s falling apart American hegemony drastically reduces the power of local warlords, the sovereignty argument is exactly that. That's also how you have the peace. The problem is, you don't have a say on it. This will upset the people who disagree with the American way of doing things and everything will crumble when US falters. Not having a say on it, also makes you susceptible to internal US politics. You can find yourself in a war or under an ambargo due to the election campaign of an US president. Iran, for example, had their deal for normalisation of the relationship however they become a part if the internal US politics and election campaign(Trump v.s. Obama) and everything changed for 83 million people of that country. There’s also the risk of a corrupt US president actually trading with the aspiring local warlords, enabling them for personal gains. in that case you are both out of peace and control over your fate.
- jollybean 5y ago
  The countries do have quite a lot of 'say' in it. S. Korea, Japan and Germany are not vassal states. Neither is Egypt, Israel or Saudi Arabia. It's different in every case, and there's a lot of factors, but mostly it's for mutual benefit. The Japanese and German elite are very happy to have the Americans there because it serves as a buffer. It's probably more complicated in Egypt, but the military is one of the only civic institutions with integrity, the citizens actually know that, and that it's because they are backed/supported by the US. Even on the 'Arab Street' they have an instinct for what that balance means even if it's obviously more difficult for some. But if Egypt really wanted the US to leave they could make them leave. Same in most places.
jltsiren 5y ago
I would attribute those good things to the ideological competition during the Cold War. America could not win by force alone, but it had to win people to its side and show that their way of living was better than the alternative. Things started going downhill soon after America won and became a hegemony. While the 90s promised a better future for everyone, the 2000s saw the beginning of the "war against reality", as there was no longer any existential threat to keep various political ambitions in check.

chrisseaton 5y ago

> I never understood the good effects of American hegemony until they started breaking down. This is a one-sentence forward to some future history of the 21st century yet to be written. Can we please get this engraved on the headstone of the millennial generation?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ludocode 5y ago
It's not clear whether you mean it this way or not, but the impression I get from your post is that you're implying millenials are to blame for the downfall of America. It's hard not to take offense to that.
- AmpsterMan 5y ago
  I understood that more as the poster thinking that the millenial generation is the first one fully situated in the post American hegemony world.
- Lammy 5y ago
  No need to take offense when Millennials control such a small share of wealth and political power, though I can't decide if that makes it better, or worse. I can't figure out how to deep link my Data Cube, but you can see from the Office of Personnel Management that the Federal workforce is old: https://www.fedscope.opm.gov/ https://www.fedscope.opm.gov/ Screenshot for those who don't want to wrangle the Data Cube UI: https://i.imgur.com/0XQ1LEj.png https://i.imgur.com/0XQ1LEj.png
nyokodo 5y ago
> Can we please get this engraved on the headstone of the millennial generation? The order started breaking down in the 90s when the oldest Millennials were in elementary school, accelerated in the 00s when the youngest Millennials were in preschool, and was formalized in 2016 mostly by older generations. The big problem that I see is that while bits and pieces get taught the artificial trade security brought on by the Bretton Woods order were never taught! I only just started learning about it recently and I'm a bit pissed off that this wasn't in 20th Century History 101.

jollybean 5y ago

People have no intuition for the incredible bubble we live in, the historical uniqueness of it, and the immense work it takes to keep it alive. The living memory of the post-WW2 order is fading and most people basically don't understand that we're living in that house, that it's very real, and that it takes maintenance. Peace isn't the absence of war, it's the balance of power, and the recognition that not all powers are the same. Without US relationship with Egypt, it would fall and with it the Suez, and they'd be at war with Israel very quickly. 'Real War'. Without US support of House of Saud and 5th fleet, Saudi Arabia and Iran would be probably at war. And that's just one region. It's complicated and there is no way 'not to play the game' as in a power vacuum it will definitely be total chaos - so we have to figure out how to balance the power in some reasonable way.

rapind 5y ago
The king would say “the peasants have no idea how good they have it”, and would be right in many ways, but is this the best we can do?
- jollybean 5y ago
  I would disagree with that analogy. Your neighbours with the biggest houses, that they built themselves, have a lot of tools and even a few weapons. They have a pretty good peace between them, and sometimes intervene in domestic disputes elsewhere. If they didn't patrol the roads then it would be way too dangerous to go out on them, and many of your neighbours would be in vendetta wars. The best thing you can do is act responsibly, and join the group of responsible acting neighbours. They frankly don't really have a lot of interest in patrolling the streets in general. It makes them feel good but it's really, really costly.
abhishekjha 5y ago
You shouldn’t have a problem once new players enter and want a share of that pie. Afterall its all good.
- jollybean 5y ago

10000truths 5y ago

This is a naively exceptionalist view of America‘s role in the world. > enabled secure trade between countries Unless you’re Venezuela, Iran or (until recently) Cuba, or anyone that didn’t play ball with the US in the Cold War era and after. Then you get sanctioned to hell and your ships seized for daring to trade with anyone else. > brought 75 years of peace to Europe If you’re referring to WWII, the US had very little role in ending the war in Europe. > allowed the rise of China It is Chinese economic policy that allowed the rise of China. The US literally engaged in a trade war against China. > brought billions out of poverty by removing many of the limitations of geography Economic globalization was brought on by the development of nuclear weapons, not by the generosity of any individual country.

hcurtiss 5y ago
> If you’re referring to WWII, the US had very little role in ending the war in Europe. Wow. Except, you know, for Normandy.
- hef19898 5y ago
  Which included British, Canadian and French forces. Still, US military contribution was bigger than in WW1. The main US contribution was industrial and financial, the blood in Europe was mostly from the USSR.
- adsfasdfadsf222 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the...
chrisseaton 5y ago
> the US had very little role in ending the war in Europe This is bonkers-tier delusional.
- syops 5y ago
  The war in Europe was won with Soviet blood. The failure of the Germans to take Moscow in 1941 effectively ended any chance of a German victory. While the U.S. made major financial and material contributions it's clear the Soviets were going to win the war before the Americans entered it.

adsfasdfadsf222 5y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_19... US CIA backed murder of 500k to 1.2m indonesians in 1965 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_state-sponsored_terrorism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_state-sponso... "The United States has at various times in recent history provided support to terrorist and paramilitary organizations around the world. It has also provided assistance to numerous authoritarian regimes that have used state terrorism as a tool of repression" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia "they werne't civilians, they were policemen, promise!" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinwiesenlager https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinwiesenlager operating their own concentration camps, not reporting the deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_Agent_Orange_on_the_Vietnamese_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_Agent_Orange_on_the... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_U.S._drone_strikes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_U.S._... it is still not clear why USA completely destroyed libya either https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_... most importantly of all though it is unclear why the USA invaded middle east and directly caused the deaths of millions of people, and has engaged in 20 years of non stop warfare. 23 years if you count yugoslavian intervention.

chrisseaton 5y ago
Everyone knows the US has done terrible things. But at the same time everyone knows if they had work with one ally it'd be the US because they're less terrible than everyone else. I'm not American but I know if I had to put my life in the hands of one other country than my own it'd definitely be the US, and I'd be pretty confident in doing that.
- adsfasdfadsf222 5y ago

croes 5y ago

That is the same kind of peace that the Roman Empire brought.

mrtksn 5y ago

>That is a great good, and it’s falling apart American hegemony drastically reduces the power of local warlords, the sovereignty argument is exactly that. That's also how you have the peace. The problem is, you don't have a say on it. This will upset the people who disagree with the American way of doing things and everything will crumble when US falters. Not having a say on it, also makes you susceptible to internal US politics. You can find yourself in a war or under an ambargo due to the election campaign of an US president. Iran, for example, had their deal for normalisation of the relationship however they become a part if the internal US politics and election campaign(Trump v.s. Obama) and everything changed for 83 million people of that country. There’s also the risk of a corrupt US president actually trading with the aspiring local warlords, enabling them for personal gains. in that case you are both out of peace and control over your fate.

jollybean 5y ago
The countries do have quite a lot of 'say' in it. S. Korea, Japan and Germany are not vassal states. Neither is Egypt, Israel or Saudi Arabia. It's different in every case, and there's a lot of factors, but mostly it's for mutual benefit. The Japanese and German elite are very happy to have the Americans there because it serves as a buffer. It's probably more complicated in Egypt, but the military is one of the only civic institutions with integrity, the citizens actually know that, and that it's because they are backed/supported by the US. Even on the 'Arab Street' they have an instinct for what that balance means even if it's obviously more difficult for some. But if Egypt really wanted the US to leave they could make them leave. Same in most places.

jltsiren 5y ago

I would attribute those good things to the ideological competition during the Cold War. America could not win by force alone, but it had to win people to its side and show that their way of living was better than the alternative. Things started going downhill soon after America won and became a hegemony. While the 90s promised a better future for everyone, the 2000s saw the beginning of the "war against reality", as there was no longer any existential threat to keep various political ambitions in check.