5 ms·

Well, hello then. Here I am, complaining. Operating costs for a business to simply exist should be nothing. Free. Nada. It should cost 0 for some database entry

Well, hello then. Here I am, complaining. Operating costs for a business to simply exist should be nothing. Free. Nada. It should cost 0 for some database entry to exist in a corporation directory. Oh, and if you're interested in that, welcome to Arizona. You're already paying taxes. You're already paying insurance. You're already taking on risk. There should be absolutely no friction to take on risk and start an enterprise. Leave that friction to all the other places that make sense like taking out a loan, building your brand, establishing a network. And yet, if you wanted to expand to other countries, you have to pay sometimes thousands of dollars annually just to exist as a foreign corporate entity. It's nonsense. It's just a money grab for certain regions. As if you paying those contractors or employees isn't directly injecting capital into those economies.

CameronNemo 5y ago
If you can't scrounge up a few hundred to register an LLC ($140 in Washington from what I read), how the hell are you going to order any kind of computer hardware? Prototypes can cost thousands.
- andrewflnr 5y ago
  We're not just talking about hardware startups, but tiny service businesses and the like. While getting off the ground, they might have minimal startup expenses but also near zero revenue. You might say they should wait until they have more revenue, but there's no good reason to force them to register an LLC later, with all the pointless change to bank accounts and such that entails, if you don't need to. I mean, I don't hate that I paid $50 or so (IIRC) to register my VA LLC, but any more than that is getting to be a bit much.
- andrewmcwatters 5y ago
  I think you just have an incomplete picture. Most LLCs, most small businesses, are nearly indistinguishable from individual income in terms of revenue simply because a large portion of them are single-member. So that being said, there's little to no difference between these individuals complaining about non-commercial fees, and commercial fees. Fees are fees. And these ones don't make any sense.
rapind 5y ago
This sounds like a really good point to me. If a politician wants to encourage small businesses, why not remove all fees to get up and running? Maybe provide free lawyering and business plan consulting as well? Too often incentives are locked behind a bunch of paperwork and hoops which require up front capital to take advantage of. Which creates a market for third parties to benefit from by charging for these services, instead of founders benefiting directly. A great example of a horrible incentives program that results in this is SR&ED in Canada. I guess you could argue it employs a bunch of service providers to assemble SR&ED claims... so jobs? You also pay at least $600 to incorporate in Canada and most often employ a lawyer to do it for you ($1,200+). Seems pretty counter intuitive if your goal is to promote startups and small business.
- andrewflnr 5y ago
  As a recent small business starter, the most valuable thing to me would have been a complete, authoritative checklist of all the steps needed. All the licenses, registrations, etc, and dependencies between them. Sure, it will need a bit of customization for each business (need food service license?), but if it's still ambiguous after that, fix the law so it's not ambiguous. I generally think it's a human rights violation that law is so impenetrable to the people who are supposed to follow it, but it's especially obvious in this case that murkiness helps literally no one.
wolverine876 5y ago
An argument in theory, but in practice it has no bearing on starting a business. You can complain all you want, but in my entire career you are the first. If I was doing business with you and you were wasting your time on this issue (as opposed to chatting on HN) (edit: or, goodness forbid, choosing a business location based on it), I would question your business sense. Surely there are a million things you could do with greater ROI. In theory, a business receives very many services from government, such as entire systems of infrastructure (which itself is composed of systems of transport, energy, etc.) and law. The fees are a fantastic deal.
- andrewmcwatters 5y ago
  that's cute
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    Another thing I've learned over many years: If someone is using insults then they are out of ideas.
    - andrewmcwatters 5y ago
      I mean there's nothing you're contributing by saying I'm the first person you've come across that's complained about fees. So what? You're just antagonizing to antagonize. But my business sense is fine, thanks. I'm pretty sure retiring in my 20s allows me to say that. Maybe you know something I don't, though, having accumulated this knowledge over many years; I'm open to learning new things if you're open to contributing something useful. Maybe if you wanted to make your point you could at least say something about effective tax rates in the most populous metro areas, or state-by-state annual fees or corporate requirements, or literally anything. But my guess is you don't have any of that information to provide. In business there aren't "a million things you could do with greater ROI." You form a business, you sell goods and services, and you focus on the maybe 5 or so things that are relevant to your industry. All of this other imprecise talk is just online blabber.
thevagrant 5y ago
It used to be that way where I live. Zero fees to register and maintain registration. What happened was the register became a target for money laundering shell companies. Companies would be owned in complex layers by other shell companies (hundreds of layered companies to make investigating ownership too difficult). The govt added registration fees and annual renewal to help resource the register to improve it's system and ensure that the database maintained its purpose. Many argue for paying less taxes but we might want to look closely at where we live and consider whether our locality is truly well resourced in all walks of life. Has all infrastructure been built and maintained to perfection? If yes, then maybe it is worth arguing for reducing fees/taxes but I don't know that this utopia exists yet.

CameronNemo 5y ago

If you can't scrounge up a few hundred to register an LLC ($140 in Washington from what I read), how the hell are you going to order any kind of computer hardware? Prototypes can cost thousands.

andrewflnr 5y ago
We're not just talking about hardware startups, but tiny service businesses and the like. While getting off the ground, they might have minimal startup expenses but also near zero revenue. You might say they should wait until they have more revenue, but there's no good reason to force them to register an LLC later, with all the pointless change to bank accounts and such that entails, if you don't need to. I mean, I don't hate that I paid $50 or so (IIRC) to register my VA LLC, but any more than that is getting to be a bit much.
andrewmcwatters 5y ago
I think you just have an incomplete picture. Most LLCs, most small businesses, are nearly indistinguishable from individual income in terms of revenue simply because a large portion of them are single-member. So that being said, there's little to no difference between these individuals complaining about non-commercial fees, and commercial fees. Fees are fees. And these ones don't make any sense.

rapind 5y ago

This sounds like a really good point to me. If a politician wants to encourage small businesses, why not remove all fees to get up and running? Maybe provide free lawyering and business plan consulting as well? Too often incentives are locked behind a bunch of paperwork and hoops which require up front capital to take advantage of. Which creates a market for third parties to benefit from by charging for these services, instead of founders benefiting directly. A great example of a horrible incentives program that results in this is SR&ED in Canada. I guess you could argue it employs a bunch of service providers to assemble SR&ED claims... so jobs? You also pay at least $600 to incorporate in Canada and most often employ a lawyer to do it for you ($1,200+). Seems pretty counter intuitive if your goal is to promote startups and small business.

andrewflnr 5y ago
As a recent small business starter, the most valuable thing to me would have been a complete, authoritative checklist of all the steps needed. All the licenses, registrations, etc, and dependencies between them. Sure, it will need a bit of customization for each business (need food service license?), but if it's still ambiguous after that, fix the law so it's not ambiguous. I generally think it's a human rights violation that law is so impenetrable to the people who are supposed to follow it, but it's especially obvious in this case that murkiness helps literally no one.

wolverine876 5y ago

An argument in theory, but in practice it has no bearing on starting a business. You can complain all you want, but in my entire career you are the first. If I was doing business with you and you were wasting your time on this issue (as opposed to chatting on HN) (edit: or, goodness forbid, choosing a business location based on it), I would question your business sense. Surely there are a million things you could do with greater ROI. In theory, a business receives very many services from government, such as entire systems of infrastructure (which itself is composed of systems of transport, energy, etc.) and law. The fees are a fantastic deal.

andrewmcwatters 5y ago
that's cute
- wolverine876 5y ago
  Another thing I've learned over many years: If someone is using insults then they are out of ideas.
  - andrewmcwatters 5y ago
    I mean there's nothing you're contributing by saying I'm the first person you've come across that's complained about fees. So what? You're just antagonizing to antagonize. But my business sense is fine, thanks. I'm pretty sure retiring in my 20s allows me to say that. Maybe you know something I don't, though, having accumulated this knowledge over many years; I'm open to learning new things if you're open to contributing something useful. Maybe if you wanted to make your point you could at least say something about effective tax rates in the most populous metro areas, or state-by-state annual fees or corporate requirements, or literally anything. But my guess is you don't have any of that information to provide. In business there aren't "a million things you could do with greater ROI." You form a business, you sell goods and services, and you focus on the maybe 5 or so things that are relevant to your industry. All of this other imprecise talk is just online blabber.

thevagrant 5y ago

It used to be that way where I live. Zero fees to register and maintain registration. What happened was the register became a target for money laundering shell companies. Companies would be owned in complex layers by other shell companies (hundreds of layered companies to make investigating ownership too difficult). The govt added registration fees and annual renewal to help resource the register to improve it's system and ensure that the database maintained its purpose. Many argue for paying less taxes but we might want to look closely at where we live and consider whether our locality is truly well resourced in all walks of life. Has all infrastructure been built and maintained to perfection? If yes, then maybe it is worth arguing for reducing fees/taxes but I don't know that this utopia exists yet.