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My personal counter arguments: "People complain about range, but the issue is really availability of fast charging points, which will change" - so .. you're ad

My personal counter arguments: "People complain about range, but the issue is really availability of fast charging points, which will change" - so .. you're admitting it's not in the state it needs to be, and you're hoping that changes in the future? I'm moments away from heading out on a backcountry trip in the desert east of the cascades - how long would you estimate it would take for fast charging points to exist even within even a hundred miles of where I'm about to go? I'm also able to just strap on extra gallons of fuel if I want to extend my range even further. "The smooth constant acceleration" - Not really sure how this is a benefit at all, unless you're comparing sports cars. "quiet ride" - I've never once in my life wished that the interior of my vehicle was quieter, this is such a superficial benefit to consider. "not needing to visit petrol stations" - I guess this is a benefit, of course it's offset by needing charging infrastructure both in your house and wherever you go, neither of which exist for me, but what does exist are millions of gas stations which are incredibly convenient to get to and spend 5 minutes at in order to be able to drive hundreds of more miles. There will be a gas station in the tiny towns on my route today, there won't be charging stations, let alone fast charging stations. "long service intervals" - There's some benefit here, although you still have regular maintenance that still has to be done, it doesn't eliminate it. Even still, it's a trivial amount of time to do basic maintenance on my vehicle. "lack of particles coming out the back" - As long as the electricity you power it with didn't come from a dirty source, like most are, sure. In general, if all you use your vehicle for are little trips around the area of a major city, then yeah you can make it work. If you actually use your vehicle as a vehicle, it still doesn't remotely make sense.

casperb 5y ago
> "quiet ride" - I've never once in my life wished that the interior of my vehicle was quieter, this is such a superficial benefit to consider. This is for me the single biggest reason I will never go back to an ICE car, after driving a Model X for 4 years now. My wife drives a small petrol car (Renault Clio) and I hate the sound of the engine so much. Do you have experience driving an electric car as a daily? Or just countering all arguments as an exercise?
- bradlys 5y ago
  Comparing a $100K+ luxury car to a econobox is really not a good point of reference. Compare similarly priced cars.
  - adamcstephens 5y ago
    My 2018 Q5 is extremely quiet. When I drove an etron loaner, I noticed the artificial sound it makes, but it was otherwise quiet as well.
  - casperb 5y ago
    I have the same feeling in a Range Rover. It is not about wind noise, but the sound of a running ICE that annoys me.
rorykoehler 5y ago
You can use a petrol generator to charge your car for your super edge case that 99.99999% of us will never have to worry about
- ghaff 5y ago
  It's very common in non-urban areas of US West such as around huge National Forests to have very limited infrastructure. And it's not 0.00001% of the population that goes to places like that. I suspect that there will be some substantial subset of users and use cases where PHEVs will make sense for a very long time.
  - rkk3 5y ago
    Needing to strap gas to the roof of a vehicle because of lack of infrastructure is a common issue?
    - ghaff 5y ago
      No. (Although some who are really into driving in remote areas do.) At least today, gas range is still longer. For my SUV, it's about 450 miles. And gas stations are certainly more common than fast charging EV stations.
  - rorykoehler 5y ago
    The better measure is whether it is 0.00001% of trips? This argument is similar to me (a European) deciding not to buy a sedan because I can’t drive it through the Sahara desert. If I want to do that I’ll rent a fit for purpose car because I sure am not doing it often (or even twice in a decade).
    - ghaff 5y ago
      If it's really really rare, it's one thing. If it's renting a car that won't be set up the way I like it and that I'm often not even supposed to drive on non-paved roads even once or twice a year, it's something else.
tracedddd 5y ago
It sounds like an ICE vehicle is the best fit for you, but also that your needs are quite unique. 99% of even SUV owners are never taking their vehicle backcountry anywhere. A dirt parking lot at a redwoods park an hour out is the most off grid they’ll ever get. And the acceleration and quiet ride are nice. It’s just one of those things you don’t appreciate till you have for a while. Like backup cameras.
east2west 5y ago
"on a backcountry trip in the desert ... strap on extra gallons of fuel" -- Since you are going into a desert, would a portable solar charger work in place of extra fuel? The downsize is that it is only usable in daylight and it might not be able to charge fast enough, but solar panel is not flammable like gasoline so safer. It is probably more realistic to have solar charging stations in desert, independent of electric grid; at least we don't have to run wires into desert just to charge cars. Smooth acceleration will help prevent someone getting car sick. Similarly, absence of car exhaust helps, too.
- tracedddd 5y ago
  It’s a challenge to get enough solar panel area to rely on for charging unless you were camping for a few days every few hundred miles or something. Someday I hope it’s viable but it’s really not a great solution right now compared to ICE.
chillwaves 5y ago
Smooth acceleration is due to no gearing, which means no transmission. Which goes into the next point about maintenance. ICE cars are extremely complicated due to how they transmit power to the wheels. 90% of this is eliminated in electric cars because the motors are at the wheels. And it's a lot easier to capture pollution at the source of centralized power generation vs hundreds of million of cars, but I am just stating the obvious here. If anything, your "counter points" -- while acknowledging the tech isn't perfect, are actually making a strong argument for electric cars. As far as gas vs electric infrastructure it's genuinely perplexing that someone would argue for the former over the latter. For one thing, electricity is a lot more useful than gas! It's also safer, easier and cheaper to transport. It also exists basically everywhere, even if the current infrastructure is not up to spec, you can still charge an electric car with a regular outlet with no special considerations. Every thing you are saying is a detraction is really just pointing out solutions that are still in the early stages, but absolutely will get here vs problems we have just accepted from ICE.
- toxik 5y ago
  No discussion about EVs is complete without mentioning the batteries. They are extremely environmentally toxic, and get depleted with time. Not good.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - thatswrong0 5y ago
    From what I’ve read, its cheaper to recycle certain materials from old EV packs than it is to mine new material from the earth. If this is true and continues to be the case, it seems like one of those problems that will luckily solve itself because it is economical.
- tialaramex 5y ago
  > 90% of this is eliminated in electric cars because the motors are at the wheels. It's not common to put the motors in the wheels.
dm319 5y ago
The range thing depends on your use case, and clearly it isn't going to suit you. I have a pretty long commute - 60-70 miles each day, but this is easily swallowed by an electric. Most people use their cars to commute and do errands in. We occasionally do a longer trip, and here in the UK, that would need planning to work around where the fast (>50kW) chargers are. Smooth acceleration is more a comfort thing. I normally use a manual, but even with an automatic, you're probably used to the shifts and the loss of torque - it's more comfortable on your neck to not have this. Re: quietness - I do an hour commute each way, and I've done it in cars that aren't sound proofed well - I've had my ears ringing slightly on arrival. However, above 50mph noise is more to do with tyres and wind than the engine. A quieter car means I can listen to the radio and my music without hurting my ears, and conversations in the car can be casual without me shouting. To add to long service intervals - less things to go wrong. An electric engine is simple. Don't need to change oil, don't need to worry about a gearbox, don't worry about the exhaust going, or the clutch, or the timing belt, or the fuel injectors. Your last point - car engines are less efficient than a power station at converting fossil fuels into energy. I don't know whether they produce less particulates (my guess would be they do as our country burns natural gas which is simpler than petrol/diesel), but they don't push it out into the faces of people walking, or the air intake of the car behind.
slg 5y ago
If you have electricity at this remote location you can charge your vehicle from a standard 120 volt outlet and get something in the range of 30 miles a day. So if the nearest fast charge is around 150 miles away and you are going to spend a few days at your destination, you can make that trip today with an EV that has 200+ mile range like previously mentioned Audi. There are also Teslas today that have well over 300 miles of range and could make that trip even without the 120v destination charging.
- ericd 5y ago
  FWIW, I've seen these really low charge rate numbers for 120V outlets repeated over and over, but in my experience, if you let it run at max continuous speed (12 amps), the Model Y generally gets 5 miles of charge per hour on a standard 120/15 amp household plug in the 20%-80% state of charge range. Not amazing if you need to charge the entire battery, but quite adequate for day-to-day.
11thEarlOfMar 5y ago
One size does not fit all, your counter makes sense. FWIW, my personal observations after putting 80k miles on a BEV: - Range: I haven't visited the White Mountains in Eastern CA yet because I haven't been able to confidently solve the charging situation. Otherwise, I've ranged from Mendocino to LA to Tahoe with no concerns. - Acceleration: It's more the punch for me. It's just fun to hit the accelerator and be instantly thrust back into the seat. My 328i was awesome, drove it for 20 years. My BEV is more fun. - Quiet: Music is important to me while driving. The very quiet ride enhances listening. - Charging: I did pay ~$2,000 to put a 90 Amp drop into the garage. I'm paying 12 cents/KWh. The only time I need to use a charge station is on long drives. - Long Service Intervals: It's not the time. It's the cost. By 80k miles on the BMW, I'd spent $5k on brakes, oils changes/tune ups, a radiator and thermostat. The BEV cost about $1k for a windshield. $0 for anything else. Thanks to regen braking, I've got 85% of my original brake pads left.
jliptzin 5y ago
With regard to smooth acceleration and quiet ride, it sounds like you’ve never actually driven an electric vehicle before, you should at least try it before offering your opinion about it
tialaramex 5y ago
> "lack of particles coming out the back" - As long as the electricity you power it with didn't come from a dirty source, like most are, sure. The only power stations that are producing a bunch of particles similar to an ICE car are coal plants and even with Trump doing his whole "Trump digs coal" nonsense these plants didn't make any economic sense any more. They made less than a quarter of America's electricity in 2020 and that fraction has been falling for years. Also, unlike your car exhaust, which is literally where your car is, the coal plant's exhaust is typically over 100 metres above the plant. It's still filthy, but at least it isn't, for example, right outside a primary school, or arm's length from a passing jogger.
salamandersauce 5y ago
How often do you go on long road trips? I'd imagine most people do their commute and stuff around town like groceries and grabbing a bite to eat with friends and maybe once or twice a year go somewhere that actually hits the range limit. And I'm betting that's mostly visiting family in another city rather than backcountry camping. And for that? Renting an ICE car would be a option.
- ghaff 5y ago
  Having to rent for even bimonthly trips would get old in a big hurry IMO. What probably will be a common scenario for couples is a small EV and a larger ICE/PHEV. I used to actually have a small two-seater with great gas mileage and a larger SUV. But the two-seater got old, I stopped commuting in general, and it just didn't make sense to keep a second vehicle.
oblio 5y ago
> "quiet ride" - I've never once in my life wished that the interior of my vehicle was quieter, this is such a superficial benefit to consider. It's FAR from superficial. Go for a test drive in a luxury car. You'll notice that you can listening to the radio even at high speeds is much easier, taking calls, same, heck, even talking. It's one of those things you only notice in reverse: if you've never had it, you don't know what you're missing, but once you've experienced, for sure you're going to hate going back. Of course, you can get used to everything, some people don't even riding in a horse drawn carriage with solid wheels and no suspension :-p
antisthenes 5y ago
> In general, if all you use your vehicle for are little trips around the area of a major city, then yeah you can make it work. If you actually use your vehicle as a vehicle, it still doesn't remotely make sense. You had some pretty good points until this dismissive part. Believe it or not, but there are millions of people who don't ever need or want to travel more than 100 miles both ways. And don't really need a truck either. Just because your use case isn't the same as theirs, you don't get to decide whether what they have is a "vehicle" or not.

casperb 5y ago

> "quiet ride" - I've never once in my life wished that the interior of my vehicle was quieter, this is such a superficial benefit to consider. This is for me the single biggest reason I will never go back to an ICE car, after driving a Model X for 4 years now. My wife drives a small petrol car (Renault Clio) and I hate the sound of the engine so much. Do you have experience driving an electric car as a daily? Or just countering all arguments as an exercise?

bradlys 5y ago
Comparing a $100K+ luxury car to a econobox is really not a good point of reference. Compare similarly priced cars.
- adamcstephens 5y ago
  My 2018 Q5 is extremely quiet. When I drove an etron loaner, I noticed the artificial sound it makes, but it was otherwise quiet as well.
- casperb 5y ago
  I have the same feeling in a Range Rover. It is not about wind noise, but the sound of a running ICE that annoys me.

rorykoehler 5y ago

You can use a petrol generator to charge your car for your super edge case that 99.99999% of us will never have to worry about

ghaff 5y ago
It's very common in non-urban areas of US West such as around huge National Forests to have very limited infrastructure. And it's not 0.00001% of the population that goes to places like that. I suspect that there will be some substantial subset of users and use cases where PHEVs will make sense for a very long time.
- rkk3 5y ago
  Needing to strap gas to the roof of a vehicle because of lack of infrastructure is a common issue?
  - ghaff 5y ago
    No. (Although some who are really into driving in remote areas do.) At least today, gas range is still longer. For my SUV, it's about 450 miles. And gas stations are certainly more common than fast charging EV stations.
- rorykoehler 5y ago
  The better measure is whether it is 0.00001% of trips? This argument is similar to me (a European) deciding not to buy a sedan because I can’t drive it through the Sahara desert. If I want to do that I’ll rent a fit for purpose car because I sure am not doing it often (or even twice in a decade).
  - ghaff 5y ago
    If it's really really rare, it's one thing. If it's renting a car that won't be set up the way I like it and that I'm often not even supposed to drive on non-paved roads even once or twice a year, it's something else.

tracedddd 5y ago

It sounds like an ICE vehicle is the best fit for you, but also that your needs are quite unique. 99% of even SUV owners are never taking their vehicle backcountry anywhere. A dirt parking lot at a redwoods park an hour out is the most off grid they’ll ever get. And the acceleration and quiet ride are nice. It’s just one of those things you don’t appreciate till you have for a while. Like backup cameras.

east2west 5y ago

"on a backcountry trip in the desert ... strap on extra gallons of fuel" -- Since you are going into a desert, would a portable solar charger work in place of extra fuel? The downsize is that it is only usable in daylight and it might not be able to charge fast enough, but solar panel is not flammable like gasoline so safer. It is probably more realistic to have solar charging stations in desert, independent of electric grid; at least we don't have to run wires into desert just to charge cars. Smooth acceleration will help prevent someone getting car sick. Similarly, absence of car exhaust helps, too.

tracedddd 5y ago
It’s a challenge to get enough solar panel area to rely on for charging unless you were camping for a few days every few hundred miles or something. Someday I hope it’s viable but it’s really not a great solution right now compared to ICE.

chillwaves 5y ago

Smooth acceleration is due to no gearing, which means no transmission. Which goes into the next point about maintenance. ICE cars are extremely complicated due to how they transmit power to the wheels. 90% of this is eliminated in electric cars because the motors are at the wheels. And it's a lot easier to capture pollution at the source of centralized power generation vs hundreds of million of cars, but I am just stating the obvious here. If anything, your "counter points" -- while acknowledging the tech isn't perfect, are actually making a strong argument for electric cars. As far as gas vs electric infrastructure it's genuinely perplexing that someone would argue for the former over the latter. For one thing, electricity is a lot more useful than gas! It's also safer, easier and cheaper to transport. It also exists basically everywhere, even if the current infrastructure is not up to spec, you can still charge an electric car with a regular outlet with no special considerations. Every thing you are saying is a detraction is really just pointing out solutions that are still in the early stages, but absolutely will get here vs problems we have just accepted from ICE.

toxik 5y ago
No discussion about EVs is complete without mentioning the batteries. They are extremely environmentally toxic, and get depleted with time. Not good.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- thatswrong0 5y ago
  From what I’ve read, its cheaper to recycle certain materials from old EV packs than it is to mine new material from the earth. If this is true and continues to be the case, it seems like one of those problems that will luckily solve itself because it is economical.
tialaramex 5y ago
> 90% of this is eliminated in electric cars because the motors are at the wheels. It's not common to put the motors in the wheels.

dm319 5y ago

The range thing depends on your use case, and clearly it isn't going to suit you. I have a pretty long commute - 60-70 miles each day, but this is easily swallowed by an electric. Most people use their cars to commute and do errands in. We occasionally do a longer trip, and here in the UK, that would need planning to work around where the fast (>50kW) chargers are. Smooth acceleration is more a comfort thing. I normally use a manual, but even with an automatic, you're probably used to the shifts and the loss of torque - it's more comfortable on your neck to not have this. Re: quietness - I do an hour commute each way, and I've done it in cars that aren't sound proofed well - I've had my ears ringing slightly on arrival. However, above 50mph noise is more to do with tyres and wind than the engine. A quieter car means I can listen to the radio and my music without hurting my ears, and conversations in the car can be casual without me shouting. To add to long service intervals - less things to go wrong. An electric engine is simple. Don't need to change oil, don't need to worry about a gearbox, don't worry about the exhaust going, or the clutch, or the timing belt, or the fuel injectors. Your last point - car engines are less efficient than a power station at converting fossil fuels into energy. I don't know whether they produce less particulates (my guess would be they do as our country burns natural gas which is simpler than petrol/diesel), but they don't push it out into the faces of people walking, or the air intake of the car behind.

slg 5y ago

If you have electricity at this remote location you can charge your vehicle from a standard 120 volt outlet and get something in the range of 30 miles a day. So if the nearest fast charge is around 150 miles away and you are going to spend a few days at your destination, you can make that trip today with an EV that has 200+ mile range like previously mentioned Audi. There are also Teslas today that have well over 300 miles of range and could make that trip even without the 120v destination charging.

ericd 5y ago
FWIW, I've seen these really low charge rate numbers for 120V outlets repeated over and over, but in my experience, if you let it run at max continuous speed (12 amps), the Model Y generally gets 5 miles of charge per hour on a standard 120/15 amp household plug in the 20%-80% state of charge range. Not amazing if you need to charge the entire battery, but quite adequate for day-to-day.

11thEarlOfMar 5y ago

One size does not fit all, your counter makes sense. FWIW, my personal observations after putting 80k miles on a BEV: - Range: I haven't visited the White Mountains in Eastern CA yet because I haven't been able to confidently solve the charging situation. Otherwise, I've ranged from Mendocino to LA to Tahoe with no concerns. - Acceleration: It's more the punch for me. It's just fun to hit the accelerator and be instantly thrust back into the seat. My 328i was awesome, drove it for 20 years. My BEV is more fun. - Quiet: Music is important to me while driving. The very quiet ride enhances listening. - Charging: I did pay ~$2,000 to put a 90 Amp drop into the garage. I'm paying 12 cents/KWh. The only time I need to use a charge station is on long drives. - Long Service Intervals: It's not the time. It's the cost. By 80k miles on the BMW, I'd spent $5k on brakes, oils changes/tune ups, a radiator and thermostat. The BEV cost about $1k for a windshield. $0 for anything else. Thanks to regen braking, I've got 85% of my original brake pads left.

jliptzin 5y ago

With regard to smooth acceleration and quiet ride, it sounds like you’ve never actually driven an electric vehicle before, you should at least try it before offering your opinion about it

tialaramex 5y ago

> "lack of particles coming out the back" - As long as the electricity you power it with didn't come from a dirty source, like most are, sure. The only power stations that are producing a bunch of particles similar to an ICE car are coal plants and even with Trump doing his whole "Trump digs coal" nonsense these plants didn't make any economic sense any more. They made less than a quarter of America's electricity in 2020 and that fraction has been falling for years. Also, unlike your car exhaust, which is literally where your car is, the coal plant's exhaust is typically over 100 metres above the plant. It's still filthy, but at least it isn't, for example, right outside a primary school, or arm's length from a passing jogger.

salamandersauce 5y ago

How often do you go on long road trips? I'd imagine most people do their commute and stuff around town like groceries and grabbing a bite to eat with friends and maybe once or twice a year go somewhere that actually hits the range limit. And I'm betting that's mostly visiting family in another city rather than backcountry camping. And for that? Renting an ICE car would be a option.

ghaff 5y ago
Having to rent for even bimonthly trips would get old in a big hurry IMO. What probably will be a common scenario for couples is a small EV and a larger ICE/PHEV. I used to actually have a small two-seater with great gas mileage and a larger SUV. But the two-seater got old, I stopped commuting in general, and it just didn't make sense to keep a second vehicle.

oblio 5y ago

> "quiet ride" - I've never once in my life wished that the interior of my vehicle was quieter, this is such a superficial benefit to consider. It's FAR from superficial. Go for a test drive in a luxury car. You'll notice that you can listening to the radio even at high speeds is much easier, taking calls, same, heck, even talking. It's one of those things you only notice in reverse: if you've never had it, you don't know what you're missing, but once you've experienced, for sure you're going to hate going back. Of course, you can get used to everything, some people don't even riding in a horse drawn carriage with solid wheels and no suspension :-p

antisthenes 5y ago

> In general, if all you use your vehicle for are little trips around the area of a major city, then yeah you can make it work. If you actually use your vehicle as a vehicle, it still doesn't remotely make sense. You had some pretty good points until this dismissive part. Believe it or not, but there are millions of people who don't ever need or want to travel more than 100 miles both ways. And don't really need a truck either. Just because your use case isn't the same as theirs, you don't get to decide whether what they have is a "vehicle" or not.