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I finally read/listened to Jared Diamond's "Collapse" earlier this year. It discusses several cases of societies collapsing or being challenged, especially in t

by abeppu 5y ago

I finally read/listened to Jared Diamond's "Collapse" earlier this year. It discusses several cases of societies collapsing or being challenged, especially in the face of environmental damage and climate change, but also issues with neighbors. Two of the lessons that he highlights are the importance of long-term, bold plans to confront problems before they are crises, and the ability to reconsider cultural values and actually change the way that people live and society functions. That book was published in 2005 and last updated in 2011, and it was depressing to get to the last chapter which focuses on the environmental problems we face today with a kind of call to action, and acknowledge that we haven't done anything substantial yet.

jcranmer 5y ago
Diamond is notorious in the anthropological community for pushing outdated and debunked theories, and Collapse has some of the worst. I think every case of ecological self-destruction he lists is considered debunked by the mainstream community (certainly, his views on Rapa Nui and Greenland are thoroughly debunked)--indeed, there's an entire book published that's a lengthy critique of his work, titled (fittingly) Questioning Collapse.
- abeppu 5y ago
  Thanks for pointing this out! As a layperson I had no idea. I suppose I did get the sense that like many authors with a Framework in mind, Diamond was likely picking and choosing examples. Without trivializing the work and scholarship, are there generalized take-away messages that you think the public should know from Questioning Collapse? Or is it mostly of interest to people seeking to understand the specific societies addressed?
  - RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
    > Without trivializing the work and scholarship, are there generalized take-away messages that you think the public should know from Questioning Collapse? Sometimes, the most important generalized take-away message is that there aren’t generalized take-away messages. Many times the causes for collapse are different and multi-factorial that an overarching theory that tries to generalize across a bunch of events is more misleading than helpful.
    - abeppu 5y ago
      I get that sometimes we get carried away trying to universalize something and let a good story get in the way of the actual facts. This is to be avoided, and if others hold those narratives up to rigorous scrutiny, that's healthy. However, it doesn't seem helpful to swing the pendulum all the way to the other end of the spectrum, where we regard everything as being so rooted in the specific and context and circumstances, that we're unwilling to draw any lessons to apply to modern problems. Surely there's some middle ground, where we can have some loose generalizations which we acknowledge only apply some of the time and are only ever partial explanations?
hidden_news 5y ago
I see you are a man of refinement who buys the best books to navigate these trying times

by abeppu 5y ago

jcranmer 5y ago

Diamond is notorious in the anthropological community for pushing outdated and debunked theories, and Collapse has some of the worst. I think every case of ecological self-destruction he lists is considered debunked by the mainstream community (certainly, his views on Rapa Nui and Greenland are thoroughly debunked)--indeed, there's an entire book published that's a lengthy critique of his work, titled (fittingly) Questioning Collapse.

abeppu 5y ago
Thanks for pointing this out! As a layperson I had no idea. I suppose I did get the sense that like many authors with a Framework in mind, Diamond was likely picking and choosing examples. Without trivializing the work and scholarship, are there generalized take-away messages that you think the public should know from Questioning Collapse? Or is it mostly of interest to people seeking to understand the specific societies addressed?
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
  > Without trivializing the work and scholarship, are there generalized take-away messages that you think the public should know from Questioning Collapse? Sometimes, the most important generalized take-away message is that there aren’t generalized take-away messages. Many times the causes for collapse are different and multi-factorial that an overarching theory that tries to generalize across a bunch of events is more misleading than helpful.
  - abeppu 5y ago
    I get that sometimes we get carried away trying to universalize something and let a good story get in the way of the actual facts. This is to be avoided, and if others hold those narratives up to rigorous scrutiny, that's healthy. However, it doesn't seem helpful to swing the pendulum all the way to the other end of the spectrum, where we regard everything as being so rooted in the specific and context and circumstances, that we're unwilling to draw any lessons to apply to modern problems. Surely there's some middle ground, where we can have some loose generalizations which we acknowledge only apply some of the time and are only ever partial explanations?

hidden_news 5y ago

I see you are a man of refinement who buys the best books to navigate these trying times