6 ms·

Also in the name of equity the UCs are now ignoring the SAT

by rcpt 5y ago

bushbaba 5y ago
You can ban the sat and grades and still measure for academic rigor. For example those who placed in a state math competition are likely to have higher academic abilities. Or those who had an article published in the news…etc. All this does is make grades no longer a measure used. And allow the wealthy to better position their kids at the detriment of the middle class. California’s strive to force outcome hurts the middle class the most. I just don’t get it.
- dehrmann 5y ago
  > You can ban the sat and grades and still measure for academic rigor It's harder to normalize performance across schools without a standardized test. > those who placed in a state math competition are likely to have higher academic abilities That sounds like a state-run math SAT that would have the same problems. > And allow the wealthy to better position their kids at the detriment of the middle class. The upper middle class is where it's actually interesting. There aren't enough wealthy people for the SAT to be a driver of mass inequality. They're already sending their kids to elite private schools, so as long as the Ivies keep favoring those schools, the status quo remains. The most important thing you can to to prepare for the SAT is do lots of practice tests. Those aren't that expensive. Anyone working class or higher can afford them. SAT classes help somewhat, but less than being somewhat familiar with the test. They're moderately expensive. Tutors are where it's interesting, and that's in upper middle class territory.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    > The most important thing you can to to prepare for the SAT is do lots of practice tests. Oh phooey. I never prepared for the SATs, and nobody I knew did, either. (Back in the 70s.) Wanna know how to do well on the SATs? Pay attention in school to readin, ritin, and rithmetic. As for SAT prep books, I see them all the time in the thrift store for a couple bucks. The notion that only the wealthy have access to them is nonsense.
    - diamond559 5y ago
      A lot has changed since then, college acceptance rates are plummeting and competition is absolutely cutthroat. I graduated ~10 years ago in an affluent Bay Area neighborhood and basically everyone took at least one SAT class, multiple practice test and many had coaches to help them with the entire admissions process.
      - WalterBright 5y ago
        Caltech's freshman class size is also about 50% larger than in my day. These days I also hear that people shotgun out applications (much easier to do with a computer rather than a typewriter!) which increases the rejection rate even with the exact same number of students. I have no idea if the relative quality of today's Caltech freshman body is better or the same as in my day. I flipped through an SAT vocabulary builder book the other day. I knew nearly all the words in it already. Vocabulary is something that happens organically, by reading a lot and looking into complex things. I suspect that memorizing word lists builds a fake vocabulary. Some people have told me they recognize when someone sprinkles their language with the daily word they memorized. It comes off as pretension, not education. I suspect that if SAT training involves learning fake knowledge and test taking tricks, anyone who gets into Caltech via that method is going to find they're in the wrong place. Students there like to sit in the halls and talk about ways to build a warp drive. Students who don't belong will be watching the game on TV. One of my good friends there had an apartment off campus. He'd regularly make his special chicken wings and invite all comers (this was not to be missed). The apartment manager would come, too, and he'd just quietly sit off in a corner by himself, munching on chicken wings. I asked him once why he was there - he didn't participate, and he was way way older. He replied, "oh, this is incredibly fun. I've never ever heard people talk like this before. I just like to listen."
        raunak 5y ago
        I’m 18 now and took the SAT two years ago - I scored well without the need to practice too much, but official practice is available completely for free on Khan Academy. You really don’t need to pay anything to improve on the SAT these days, and anyone arguing elsewise is misguided as to how the test actually works. And also - I agree - I never really learned “grammar rules” or the details of writing. I just learned from listening, talking, and reading many many books in elementary and middle school. To prepare for a test by memorizing vocab seems inherently the wrong approach.
  - saagarjha 5y ago
    > That sounds like a state-run math SAT that would have the same problems. Math competitions are nothing like the SAT. Not at all. You can grind your way to an 800 on the math SAT with a basic prep and an understanding of tenth-grade math; getting a perfect score on a math competition is something only a handful of people do each year. The hardest questions tend to be of the type "ok I am not even sure how to start this one" rather than "this one has a bunch of arithmetic and I'm not sure I have time to complete it".
ipaddr 5y ago
Doesn't that mean they fail first year instead?
- bombcar 5y ago
  They’ll ban failing next you watch (they’ve already basically done this with No Child Left Behind).
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > They’ll ban failing next you watch (they’ve already basically done this with No Child Left Behind). NCLB didn't do that, and expired in 2007.
jimmaswell 5y ago
This short story shows where we're headed with things like this: http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html
FabHK 5y ago
Are the UCs ignoring the SAT, or making it optional?

Also in the name of equity the UCs are now ignoring the SAT

by rcpt 5y ago

Also in the name of equity the UCs are now ignoring the SAT

You can ban the sat and grades and still measure for academic rigor. For example those who placed in a state math competition are likely to have higher academic abilities. Or those who had an article published in the news…etc. All this does is make grades no longer a measure used. And allow the wealthy to better position their kids at the detriment of the middle class. California’s strive to force outcome hurts the middle class the most. I just don’t get it.

dehrmann 5y ago
> You can ban the sat and grades and still measure for academic rigor It's harder to normalize performance across schools without a standardized test. > those who placed in a state math competition are likely to have higher academic abilities That sounds like a state-run math SAT that would have the same problems. > And allow the wealthy to better position their kids at the detriment of the middle class. The upper middle class is where it's actually interesting. There aren't enough wealthy people for the SAT to be a driver of mass inequality. They're already sending their kids to elite private schools, so as long as the Ivies keep favoring those schools, the status quo remains. The most important thing you can to to prepare for the SAT is do lots of practice tests. Those aren't that expensive. Anyone working class or higher can afford them. SAT classes help somewhat, but less than being somewhat familiar with the test. They're moderately expensive. Tutors are where it's interesting, and that's in upper middle class territory.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > The most important thing you can to to prepare for the SAT is do lots of practice tests. Oh phooey. I never prepared for the SATs, and nobody I knew did, either. (Back in the 70s.) Wanna know how to do well on the SATs? Pay attention in school to readin, ritin, and rithmetic. As for SAT prep books, I see them all the time in the thrift store for a couple bucks. The notion that only the wealthy have access to them is nonsense.
  - diamond559 5y ago
    A lot has changed since then, college acceptance rates are plummeting and competition is absolutely cutthroat. I graduated ~10 years ago in an affluent Bay Area neighborhood and basically everyone took at least one SAT class, multiple practice test and many had coaches to help them with the entire admissions process.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      Caltech's freshman class size is also about 50% larger than in my day. These days I also hear that people shotgun out applications (much easier to do with a computer rather than a typewriter!) which increases the rejection rate even with the exact same number of students. I have no idea if the relative quality of today's Caltech freshman body is better or the same as in my day. I flipped through an SAT vocabulary builder book the other day. I knew nearly all the words in it already. Vocabulary is something that happens organically, by reading a lot and looking into complex things. I suspect that memorizing word lists builds a fake vocabulary. Some people have told me they recognize when someone sprinkles their language with the daily word they memorized. It comes off as pretension, not education. I suspect that if SAT training involves learning fake knowledge and test taking tricks, anyone who gets into Caltech via that method is going to find they're in the wrong place. Students there like to sit in the halls and talk about ways to build a warp drive. Students who don't belong will be watching the game on TV. One of my good friends there had an apartment off campus. He'd regularly make his special chicken wings and invite all comers (this was not to be missed). The apartment manager would come, too, and he'd just quietly sit off in a corner by himself, munching on chicken wings. I asked him once why he was there - he didn't participate, and he was way way older. He replied, "oh, this is incredibly fun. I've never ever heard people talk like this before. I just like to listen."
      - raunak 5y ago
        I’m 18 now and took the SAT two years ago - I scored well without the need to practice too much, but official practice is available completely for free on Khan Academy. You really don’t need to pay anything to improve on the SAT these days, and anyone arguing elsewise is misguided as to how the test actually works. And also - I agree - I never really learned “grammar rules” or the details of writing. I just learned from listening, talking, and reading many many books in elementary and middle school. To prepare for a test by memorizing vocab seems inherently the wrong approach.
- saagarjha 5y ago
  > That sounds like a state-run math SAT that would have the same problems. Math competitions are nothing like the SAT. Not at all. You can grind your way to an 800 on the math SAT with a basic prep and an understanding of tenth-grade math; getting a perfect score on a math competition is something only a handful of people do each year. The hardest questions tend to be of the type "ok I am not even sure how to start this one" rather than "this one has a bunch of arithmetic and I'm not sure I have time to complete it".

ipaddr 5y ago

Doesn't that mean they fail first year instead?

bombcar 5y ago
They’ll ban failing next you watch (they’ve already basically done this with No Child Left Behind).
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > They’ll ban failing next you watch (they’ve already basically done this with No Child Left Behind). NCLB didn't do that, and expired in 2007.

jimmaswell 5y ago

This short story shows where we're headed with things like this: http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html

FabHK 5y ago

Are the UCs ignoring the SAT, or making it optional?