33 ms·

Evolution of the Dad

72 points by RickJWagner 5y ago

the__alchemist 5y ago
Not directly mentioned in the article, but relevant: Richard Dawkins, in at least one of his books, discusses why dads don't put in as much child-rearing (in many mammals, for example). The evolutionary incentives for fathers and mothers are the same (eg they have equal stakes in the genes being propagated). 2 categories of reasons. (there may be more) - Fathers (depending on species) can't be confident a given child is theirs. Mothers can be confident due to giving live birth. Fathers have a lower incentive to care for a given child, since expending effort on offspring that's not yours is evolutionary detrimental; everything has an opportunity cost. - Mothers have a much higher investment in the child from the moment of conception: Due to the extra food they must consume to nourish the embryo, the effects of pregnancy etc. By comparison, sperm is cheap. Neither parent wants to let the child die due to lack of care, but the fathers are in a better position to call the mothers' bluff than vice versa due to the sunk cost.
- kqr 5y ago
  This is an argument I've heard previously but in the context of jealousy. The idea then is that men are on average more "sexually" jealous (don't want their heterosexual partner to have physical intimacy with other men) whereas women would on average be more "socially" jealous (don't want their heterosexual partner to have emotional intimacy with other women.) In case it needs to be explicit: the men in the story are worried that their women may become with another man's child, whereas the women are worried that the man will not remain loyal and help raise their child.
  - pgsimp 5y ago
    How silly to frame that issue in terms of jealousy, when there are actual underlying economic concerns.
  - troway357924 5y ago
    Paternity tests solve the male problem and child support laws solve the female problem. When both of those are in effect, does jealousy dissipate?
    - kqr 5y ago
      I think jealousy is controlled by a different part of the brain than our medical expertise and legal knowledge.
- jrue 5y ago
  This is fascinating, but also worrying how people might extrapolate too much from innate evolutionary upbringing. We’re social beings and there are so many examples of social constructs that benefit humans as a species but run against the grain of our more primal tendencies. It’s still important to study, and interesting nonetheless. But too often I see it used as a justification for people to express certain types of behavior (e.g. physical altercations, etc)
  - canadianfella 5y ago
    Can you provide one example?
- watwut 5y ago
  I would point that it these are speculations and gender ideologies more then science.
- webinvest 5y ago
  Well nowadays there’s inexpensive DNA tests incase your wife purposefully confuses paternity. Cheap enough that you don’t have to go on the Maury TV show to find out. One female dating strategy as old as time is to have a baby with an alpha male and let a beta male raise it. However, I don’t know of a scenario where a wife won’t get very angry if you request a paternity test.
  - vladvasiliu 5y ago
    They may be inexpensive, but they also have to be legal. In France, you may only have one if ordered by a judge, which only happens for a limited number of reasons, and may be refused if it's deemed against the child's interest. > The carrying out of a paternity test outside the legal framework carries penalties ranging from one year's imprisonment to €15,000 fine. Official source: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F14042?lang=en https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F14042?...
    - gambiting 5y ago
      Wait, really? Even if both sides consent? Why does the French government want to tell people whether they can or not can have a DNA test if both parties consent??
      - vladvasiliu 5y ago
        I seem to recall a reason along the lines of "to keep the peace in the families". Can't find that source. But in practice, I expect a paternity test to come in an otherwise troubled relationship, so I don't know how often it happens that both parents would seek to get one.
  - pgsimp 5y ago
    It is not necessarily legal to get such a test, and in some countries (like Germany), the men are still liable to pay child support even if the child isn't theirs.
  - randallsquared 5y ago
h2odragon 5y ago
> I think we need to take a much more nonjudgmental view of the human family Dunno; how many of us agree what makes a good family? "Is everyone there happier and healthier than they would be elsewhere?" would be my question, but a lot of people seem to assume a good family is one that looks like those portrayed on TV. As for animals; I can speak firsthand of dog packs where junior males have a lot to do with caring for the young, especially the "raise the teenagers" stage. The females of that age tend to stand on dignity and want nothing to do with pups, but the males are willing to be chew toys.
- sonofhans 5y ago
  > ... but the males are willing to be chew toys. The perfectly describes a non-trivial amount of fatherhood for me — I’m a combination of a mobile jungle gym and a chew toy :D
- damagednoob 5y ago
  > how many of us agree what makes a good family? I think there are things we can broadly agree on. For example, reducing the number of single-parent families or general delinquency. Once we solve those types of issues, we can get into the relative minutae of things like screen time, etc.
  - developer93 5y ago
    Why is a single parent family alone a bad thing? I could see a case where a single caring parent could be much better than 2 negligent or abusive ones.
    - damagednoob 5y ago
      Sure, add 'limiting any amount of abusive parents' to the list too. I was coming from the point of view of 'all other things being equal', two parents are better than one.
      - developer93 5y ago
chmod600 5y ago
"I think we need to take a much more nonjudgmental view of the human family, and the kinds of family structures in which children can thrive" A strange conclusion. After spending the rest of the article describing ways in which dads matter, why would the article pivot to essentially say all methods are equal? Different circumstances create different pressures and evolve different behaviors. Choosing and socially encouraging the best ones is important. Isn't that being judgemental? Sure, there's room for variety. But, as a society, you should be somewhat choosey.
- lukas099 5y ago
  A lot of the article was about how human behavior varies based on culture, including the role of the father. It also talks about studies where children without fathers had the same survival rates as those with fathers, and speculates that the father role might be fillable by other members of society. So that conclusion was not totally out of the blue.
  - hattmall 5y ago
    It seems kind of dumb, of course the role can be replaced. Its not like a father today is doing anything super specific to child survival. Just feed, change and play with the kid, obviously anyone of any sex can do these things.
    - basilgohar 5y ago
      If this is what society considers the roles of a father to be, then to goes a long way to explain so many of the challenges people face today. I certainly don't see my role with my children as just a babysitter. The partnership with my wife to raise our family is a complex and rich engagement between our strengths and weaknesses to aid in our kids development, not only physically, but also mentally and emotionally among other aspects.
    - prestigious 5y ago
      Survival is sort of not the point though? We want people to thrive not just live. People with male role models do better in school, less likely to commit crime, take risks, live longer and are happier.
User23 5y ago
Paternal investment massively improves outcomes, including fitness, for the offspring. There is a ton of data supporting this.
- borski 5y ago
  Can you provide any such data, as the article disagrees with you and specifically focuses on the role being important, but not the presence of a male father fulfilling that role.
kriskrunch 5y ago
Can the reduction in testosterone result from increased cortisol levels caused by the stress of a newborn in the home?
- DoingIsLearning 5y ago
  Sleep deprivation. Unless the study is controlling for that. Most of these studies only control for sleep deprivation based on self reported questionnaires, where parents are likely to be too optimistic.
  - jugg1es 5y ago
    Agreed. They need to start controlling for sleep deprivation and cessation of sexual activity for the weeks after birth before these studies can start suggesting anything physiological.
jugg1es 5y ago
Decrease in testosterone in human males after birth is not news, but I've never seen anyone suggest that the cause could be decreased sexual activity as the mother heals. It is known that decreased sexual activity lowers testosterone in human males. I just had my third child 10 days ago so I'm right smack in the middle of this. I don't feel a drop in libido, but lack of sleep and the knowledge that there won't be sex for a while doesn't help. I'd like to see a study that actually proves a causal relationship here.
- qiqing 5y ago
  Fathers who are soldiers away on deployment who can only see their newborn over zoom also have the dip. But only if they've been closely tracking the pregnancy and birth. Apparently the dip is not observed in fathers who are deployed soldiers who are not involved/invested.
  - jugg1es 5y ago
    wtf! can you link that? that makes even less sense because of the lack of physical contact.
petermcneeley 5y ago
Some "dads" employ other strategies https://bumpreveal.com/blogs/statistics/genghis-khan-dna-descendants https://bumpreveal.com/blogs/statistics/genghis-khan-dna-des...
- troway357924 5y ago
  > [Genghis Khan] was born to a mother who had been kidnapped and [raped] by his father, a practice in which Genghis Khan himself would later engage. > He and his men would kill the heads of other clans then force the survivors to join their united “super-clan.” > Each time he conquered a new clan or people, Genghis Khan would [rape] the women, either to himself or to his head chiefs. This is how he acquired enough wives to father the number of sons necessary to provide the DNA lineage which we know today. Standard infanticide practice for many primate species. Humans just scale better. > Yet when it comes to the DNA of Genghis Khan and his descendants, we are fascinated at the possibilities and still seek the “bragging rights” of being a part of his incredible family legacy. Being descended from a mass rapist isn't something to brag about. And let's not gloss over what those women went through.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
This article seemed to dance around stereotypes and therefore ended up saying almost nothing at all.

72 points by RickJWagner 5y ago

Not directly mentioned in the article, but relevant: Richard Dawkins, in at least one of his books, discusses why dads don't put in as much child-rearing (in many mammals, for example). The evolutionary incentives for fathers and mothers are the same (eg they have equal stakes in the genes being propagated). 2 categories of reasons. (there may be more) - Fathers (depending on species) can't be confident a given child is theirs. Mothers can be confident due to giving live birth. Fathers have a lower incentive to care for a given child, since expending effort on offspring that's not yours is evolutionary detrimental; everything has an opportunity cost. - Mothers have a much higher investment in the child from the moment of conception: Due to the extra food they must consume to nourish the embryo, the effects of pregnancy etc. By comparison, sperm is cheap. Neither parent wants to let the child die due to lack of care, but the fathers are in a better position to call the mothers' bluff than vice versa due to the sunk cost.

kqr 5y ago
This is an argument I've heard previously but in the context of jealousy. The idea then is that men are on average more "sexually" jealous (don't want their heterosexual partner to have physical intimacy with other men) whereas women would on average be more "socially" jealous (don't want their heterosexual partner to have emotional intimacy with other women.) In case it needs to be explicit: the men in the story are worried that their women may become with another man's child, whereas the women are worried that the man will not remain loyal and help raise their child.
- pgsimp 5y ago
  How silly to frame that issue in terms of jealousy, when there are actual underlying economic concerns.
- troway357924 5y ago
  Paternity tests solve the male problem and child support laws solve the female problem. When both of those are in effect, does jealousy dissipate?
  - kqr 5y ago
    I think jealousy is controlled by a different part of the brain than our medical expertise and legal knowledge.
jrue 5y ago
This is fascinating, but also worrying how people might extrapolate too much from innate evolutionary upbringing. We’re social beings and there are so many examples of social constructs that benefit humans as a species but run against the grain of our more primal tendencies. It’s still important to study, and interesting nonetheless. But too often I see it used as a justification for people to express certain types of behavior (e.g. physical altercations, etc)
- canadianfella 5y ago
  Can you provide one example?
watwut 5y ago
I would point that it these are speculations and gender ideologies more then science.
webinvest 5y ago
Well nowadays there’s inexpensive DNA tests incase your wife purposefully confuses paternity. Cheap enough that you don’t have to go on the Maury TV show to find out. One female dating strategy as old as time is to have a baby with an alpha male and let a beta male raise it. However, I don’t know of a scenario where a wife won’t get very angry if you request a paternity test.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  They may be inexpensive, but they also have to be legal. In France, you may only have one if ordered by a judge, which only happens for a limited number of reasons, and may be refused if it's deemed against the child's interest. > The carrying out of a paternity test outside the legal framework carries penalties ranging from one year's imprisonment to €15,000 fine. Official source: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F14042?lang=en https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F14042?...
  - gambiting 5y ago
    Wait, really? Even if both sides consent? Why does the French government want to tell people whether they can or not can have a DNA test if both parties consent??
    - vladvasiliu 5y ago
      I seem to recall a reason along the lines of "to keep the peace in the families". Can't find that source. But in practice, I expect a paternity test to come in an otherwise troubled relationship, so I don't know how often it happens that both parents would seek to get one.
- pgsimp 5y ago
  It is not necessarily legal to get such a test, and in some countries (like Germany), the men are still liable to pay child support even if the child isn't theirs.
- randallsquared 5y ago

h2odragon 5y ago

> I think we need to take a much more nonjudgmental view of the human family Dunno; how many of us agree what makes a good family? "Is everyone there happier and healthier than they would be elsewhere?" would be my question, but a lot of people seem to assume a good family is one that looks like those portrayed on TV. As for animals; I can speak firsthand of dog packs where junior males have a lot to do with caring for the young, especially the "raise the teenagers" stage. The females of that age tend to stand on dignity and want nothing to do with pups, but the males are willing to be chew toys.

sonofhans 5y ago
> ... but the males are willing to be chew toys. The perfectly describes a non-trivial amount of fatherhood for me — I’m a combination of a mobile jungle gym and a chew toy :D
damagednoob 5y ago
> how many of us agree what makes a good family? I think there are things we can broadly agree on. For example, reducing the number of single-parent families or general delinquency. Once we solve those types of issues, we can get into the relative minutae of things like screen time, etc.
- developer93 5y ago
  Why is a single parent family alone a bad thing? I could see a case where a single caring parent could be much better than 2 negligent or abusive ones.
  - damagednoob 5y ago
    Sure, add 'limiting any amount of abusive parents' to the list too. I was coming from the point of view of 'all other things being equal', two parents are better than one.
    - developer93 5y ago

chmod600 5y ago

"I think we need to take a much more nonjudgmental view of the human family, and the kinds of family structures in which children can thrive" A strange conclusion. After spending the rest of the article describing ways in which dads matter, why would the article pivot to essentially say all methods are equal? Different circumstances create different pressures and evolve different behaviors. Choosing and socially encouraging the best ones is important. Isn't that being judgemental? Sure, there's room for variety. But, as a society, you should be somewhat choosey.

lukas099 5y ago
A lot of the article was about how human behavior varies based on culture, including the role of the father. It also talks about studies where children without fathers had the same survival rates as those with fathers, and speculates that the father role might be fillable by other members of society. So that conclusion was not totally out of the blue.
- hattmall 5y ago
  It seems kind of dumb, of course the role can be replaced. Its not like a father today is doing anything super specific to child survival. Just feed, change and play with the kid, obviously anyone of any sex can do these things.
  - basilgohar 5y ago
    If this is what society considers the roles of a father to be, then to goes a long way to explain so many of the challenges people face today. I certainly don't see my role with my children as just a babysitter. The partnership with my wife to raise our family is a complex and rich engagement between our strengths and weaknesses to aid in our kids development, not only physically, but also mentally and emotionally among other aspects.
  - prestigious 5y ago
    Survival is sort of not the point though? We want people to thrive not just live. People with male role models do better in school, less likely to commit crime, take risks, live longer and are happier.

User23 5y ago

Paternal investment massively improves outcomes, including fitness, for the offspring. There is a ton of data supporting this.

borski 5y ago
Can you provide any such data, as the article disagrees with you and specifically focuses on the role being important, but not the presence of a male father fulfilling that role.

kriskrunch 5y ago

Can the reduction in testosterone result from increased cortisol levels caused by the stress of a newborn in the home?

DoingIsLearning 5y ago
Sleep deprivation. Unless the study is controlling for that. Most of these studies only control for sleep deprivation based on self reported questionnaires, where parents are likely to be too optimistic.
- jugg1es 5y ago
  Agreed. They need to start controlling for sleep deprivation and cessation of sexual activity for the weeks after birth before these studies can start suggesting anything physiological.

jugg1es 5y ago

Decrease in testosterone in human males after birth is not news, but I've never seen anyone suggest that the cause could be decreased sexual activity as the mother heals. It is known that decreased sexual activity lowers testosterone in human males. I just had my third child 10 days ago so I'm right smack in the middle of this. I don't feel a drop in libido, but lack of sleep and the knowledge that there won't be sex for a while doesn't help. I'd like to see a study that actually proves a causal relationship here.

qiqing 5y ago
Fathers who are soldiers away on deployment who can only see their newborn over zoom also have the dip. But only if they've been closely tracking the pregnancy and birth. Apparently the dip is not observed in fathers who are deployed soldiers who are not involved/invested.
- jugg1es 5y ago
  wtf! can you link that? that makes even less sense because of the lack of physical contact.

petermcneeley 5y ago

Some "dads" employ other strategies https://bumpreveal.com/blogs/statistics/genghis-khan-dna-descendants https://bumpreveal.com/blogs/statistics/genghis-khan-dna-des...

troway357924 5y ago
> [Genghis Khan] was born to a mother who had been kidnapped and [raped] by his father, a practice in which Genghis Khan himself would later engage. > He and his men would kill the heads of other clans then force the survivors to join their united “super-clan.” > Each time he conquered a new clan or people, Genghis Khan would [rape] the women, either to himself or to his head chiefs. This is how he acquired enough wives to father the number of sons necessary to provide the DNA lineage which we know today. Standard infanticide practice for many primate species. Humans just scale better. > Yet when it comes to the DNA of Genghis Khan and his descendants, we are fascinated at the possibilities and still seek the “bragging rights” of being a part of his incredible family legacy. Being descended from a mass rapist isn't something to brag about. And let's not gloss over what those women went through.

mensetmanusman 5y ago

This article seemed to dance around stereotypes and therefore ended up saying almost nothing at all.