5 ms·

“mediocre” men fail up

19 points by elsewhen 5y ago

draw_down 5y ago
Dross.
Traster 5y ago
I don't really doubt that mediocre men often fail up - I've witnessed it myself. But this isn't a great title, the conclusion that mediocre men fail up is from the qualitative part of the survey in other words - women believe mediocre men fail up. Which then highlights the obvious point, maybe mediocre poeple fail up, and you only notice it because men are much more likely to go "up" at all. I've certainly also witnessed mediocre performing women in senior positions, but since there are such a tiny number of women in my field, I would be much less willing to draw that conclusion.
- rightbyte 5y ago
  I think it might be quite clear why this happens. If you have a team of say sales persons, you would not want the top performers take on a role with more administration. So you promote the ones that won't leave a hole in the team output and are also somewhat competent, since the sales person will most likely be replaced by an average sales person.
  - rablackburn 5y ago
    I wish I worked at a place that thought that much about their efficiency, at least it kind of makes sense. Instead it seems like no one thinks about the business, but about the social politics of the organisation.
    - rightbyte 5y ago
      Sure. I don't think that managers reason and comes to this conclusion in like a strategic plan, but rather "I need #1 Bob on the floor to grind my bonus" and this is what happens. Surely it is just a theory that doesn't explain the whole concept.
- rijoja 5y ago
  Yeah and also when their methodology was simply asking 44 women. It is not as if they measured the performance of men and then compared that to whether they where promoted or not. No, they merely asked 44 women.
vmception 5y ago
Link to actual study https://www.wibf.org.uk/images/uploads/documents/WIBF_ACT_Good_Finance_Framework_Report.pdf https://www.wibf.org.uk/images/uploads/documents/WIBF_ACT_Go... there is an irony that the primary goal of this organization is to eliminate groupthink but 22 of the 30(?) or so women in the whole study use a term "mediocre men" that wasn't even prompted for. that's... oddly specific of a word choice, like you have to be in a group to converge on this particular term. Like, not incompetent but mediocre? Women in Banking and Finance (“WIBF” or “we”) are indebted to 44 women in financial and professional services, who gave their time for the qualitative interviews and the 35 women, also in financial and professional services, who took part in the roundtables. well, I hope this is enough information for the peer reviewed version to come out.
- rightbyte 5y ago
  Ye it is strange. Maybe the interviewer systematically said something with mediocre and men in it? It is funny how average and mediocre in corparate evalutation have come to mean something bad to avoid. I mean by definition most employees are going to be mediocre.
  - Nimitz14 5y ago
    Average and mediocre arent really the same thing tbh
    - rightbyte 5y ago
      Ye 'average' is more neutral. 'Mediocre' implies it is not OK to be average.
      - morelisp 5y ago
        Despite etymology "mediocre" doesn't mean average (and has not for centuries), but rather just barely "not bad." It would be unusual to describe actually average - mean or median - quality as mediocre.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rijoja 5y ago
From the study itself made by the organisation "Women In Banking in Finance": "Women in Banking and Finance (“WIBF” or “we”) are indebted to 44 women in financial and professional services, who gave their time for the qualitative interviews and the 35 women, also in financial and professional services, who took part in the roundtables. " So apparently they simply asked 44 women about what they about men? This doesn't sound like a very rigorous method and the name Women In Banking in Finance doesn't sound like a very unbiased organisation either.
Barrin92 5y ago
In the managerial class, sure. I doubt there's anyone alive who hasn't seen that first hand. However it's rather funny that the question of equality nowadays revolves around reshuffling desk chairs for the top 10%. The reporters at Axios should spend some time in Appalachia, the poorest black neighbourhoods or a small East German town and report back how well 'mediocre' men are doing over there.
sokoloff 5y ago
> Men in profit and loss roles who were "mediocre" were often reshuffled into positions where performance was less visible. That’s being moved aside; in banking, that’s pretty much the opposite of failing up.
- onethought 5y ago
  Depends if women in similar roles were instead fired in those circumstances. Moved sideways might still mean you are someone (more competent)‘s boss
zpeti 5y ago
I really don’t think this intentionally provocative and clickbait title (and content) is HN material.

19 points by elsewhen 5y ago

Dross.

I don't really doubt that mediocre men often fail up - I've witnessed it myself. But this isn't a great title, the conclusion that mediocre men fail up is from the qualitative part of the survey in other words - women believe mediocre men fail up. Which then highlights the obvious point, maybe mediocre poeple fail up, and you only notice it because men are much more likely to go "up" at all. I've certainly also witnessed mediocre performing women in senior positions, but since there are such a tiny number of women in my field, I would be much less willing to draw that conclusion.

rightbyte 5y ago
I think it might be quite clear why this happens. If you have a team of say sales persons, you would not want the top performers take on a role with more administration. So you promote the ones that won't leave a hole in the team output and are also somewhat competent, since the sales person will most likely be replaced by an average sales person.
- rablackburn 5y ago
  I wish I worked at a place that thought that much about their efficiency, at least it kind of makes sense. Instead it seems like no one thinks about the business, but about the social politics of the organisation.
  - rightbyte 5y ago
    Sure. I don't think that managers reason and comes to this conclusion in like a strategic plan, but rather "I need #1 Bob on the floor to grind my bonus" and this is what happens. Surely it is just a theory that doesn't explain the whole concept.
rijoja 5y ago
Yeah and also when their methodology was simply asking 44 women. It is not as if they measured the performance of men and then compared that to whether they where promoted or not. No, they merely asked 44 women.

vmception 5y ago

Link to actual study https://www.wibf.org.uk/images/uploads/documents/WIBF_ACT_Good_Finance_Framework_Report.pdf https://www.wibf.org.uk/images/uploads/documents/WIBF_ACT_Go... there is an irony that the primary goal of this organization is to eliminate groupthink but 22 of the 30(?) or so women in the whole study use a term "mediocre men" that wasn't even prompted for. that's... oddly specific of a word choice, like you have to be in a group to converge on this particular term. Like, not incompetent but mediocre? Women in Banking and Finance (“WIBF” or “we”) are indebted to 44 women in financial and professional services, who gave their time for the qualitative interviews and the 35 women, also in financial and professional services, who took part in the roundtables. well, I hope this is enough information for the peer reviewed version to come out.

rightbyte 5y ago
Ye it is strange. Maybe the interviewer systematically said something with mediocre and men in it? It is funny how average and mediocre in corparate evalutation have come to mean something bad to avoid. I mean by definition most employees are going to be mediocre.
- Nimitz14 5y ago
  Average and mediocre arent really the same thing tbh
  - rightbyte 5y ago
    Ye 'average' is more neutral. 'Mediocre' implies it is not OK to be average.
    - morelisp 5y ago
      Despite etymology "mediocre" doesn't mean average (and has not for centuries), but rather just barely "not bad." It would be unusual to describe actually average - mean or median - quality as mediocre.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

rijoja 5y ago

From the study itself made by the organisation "Women In Banking in Finance": "Women in Banking and Finance (“WIBF” or “we”) are indebted to 44 women in financial and professional services, who gave their time for the qualitative interviews and the 35 women, also in financial and professional services, who took part in the roundtables. " So apparently they simply asked 44 women about what they about men? This doesn't sound like a very rigorous method and the name Women In Banking in Finance doesn't sound like a very unbiased organisation either.

Barrin92 5y ago

In the managerial class, sure. I doubt there's anyone alive who hasn't seen that first hand. However it's rather funny that the question of equality nowadays revolves around reshuffling desk chairs for the top 10%. The reporters at Axios should spend some time in Appalachia, the poorest black neighbourhoods or a small East German town and report back how well 'mediocre' men are doing over there.

sokoloff 5y ago

> Men in profit and loss roles who were "mediocre" were often reshuffled into positions where performance was less visible. That’s being moved aside; in banking, that’s pretty much the opposite of failing up.

onethought 5y ago
Depends if women in similar roles were instead fired in those circumstances. Moved sideways might still mean you are someone (more competent)‘s boss

zpeti 5y ago

I really don’t think this intentionally provocative and clickbait title (and content) is HN material.