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>Online provides a forum for people to get the sort of attention we might like. "Look what I can do!" or "Look at me!" Still, one of my gripes about social medi

>Online provides a forum for people to get the sort of attention we might like. "Look what I can do!" or "Look at me!" Still, one of my gripes about social media is that there are so many people who lurk. There's a lot to learn from lurking. My mother watches Tik Tok videos and doesn't post herself, but cooks more now than ever based on the ideas she sees on there. You can learn about a cultural trend, a social cause, a musician, a resource, etc. There are lurkers with agendas, sure, but many are just bored and don't take pictures of everything. Message boards like this offer even more to learn. Many people repeat what's already been said. The lurker respects this or has nothing to say and moves on. I don't like that Burning Man curator's quote calling their saying a form of "inclusivity" when it doesn't include the lurker. It also suggests that "being present" is necessarily not being observant, but doing things that are supposed to be done at their festival, which I don't agree with. That said, I'm sure a space like that would actively become less of what its meant to be if there were tons of people just spectating. They should own the exclusivity that they want.

grp000 5y ago
I think OP's comment feels pretty valid, especially in an in-person event like burning man. There is a divide between participant and passive viewer. As a participant you give, and as a passive viewer you take, which can feel like an unfair arrangement, and there is a big difference between "being present" and "being fully present" which is a level of commitment burning man wants for the festival-goers. While there's nothing wrong with lurking (I think we all mostly lurk in low commitment subjects and are active in a much smaller amount of things that really interest us), it presents a fairness of effort and commitment to require participation from everyone.
- jonnyone 5y ago
  I should be clear that I agree with the sentiment of the Burning Man saying as it applies to Burning Man and events like Burning Man, I was just nitpicking the language of the curator. I happen to be part of a group that sometimes hosts events and it does feel like a faux pas when somebody asks if they can 'just watch.' But I think it goes to show the weakness of the analogy with social media, because participation and observation are very much different things on the internet than in person. I think that's a net benefit, because people can observe (and learn) without intruding in most cases.
WJW 5y ago
> I don't like that Burning Man curator's quote calling their saying a form of "inclusivity" when it doesn't include the lurker. Indeed. If you explicitly provide no space for spectators, that just means you radically reduce the set of people who want to participate at all. There are plenty of lurking-friendly spaces elsewhere so I don't think that Burning Man needs to change the policy or anything, but to pretend that it is super inclusive because the excluded group is not even present is just not true. In fact, Burning man can be said to epitomize the western secular idea that individual freedom is the highest good. There are plenty of cultures where this idea is not considered to be true. Even in the US, you can find lots of (evangelical) groups that would find people having orgies, doing drugs, not praying and in a general sense indulging themselves without thinking about God and society an abhorrent idea. In general, all cultures where some sort of patriarchal/matriarchal hierarchy is the norm (ie the tribe elders get to decide for everyone what is best) would fare pretty poorly at Burning Man I think.
- xtiansimon 5y ago
  >> “I don't like that Burning Man curator's quote calling their saying a form of "inclusivity" when it doesn't include the lurker.” > “Indeed. If you explicitly provide no space for spectators…” I think of this very differently. Burning Man has grown organically with the dawn of the Information Age. It is a product of it. No matter how you use the Internet, when it comes to learning and engagement, look at the origins—sharing of scientific information. You are a scientist/artist. You do things. You publish and promote your work in the vein of the scientific method—-making reasoned claims of truth which a stand on their own merit until proven false. It’s not a stretch to make a similar statement of art. It’s a virtuous cycle, no? If you are “lurking” then you are not contributing to the cycle but only benefiting from it. Not participating is a mistake, and failure. It’s a mistake because the health of the Internet is measured in truth. The actual financial cost can be very low, creating your own original works and expressions of truth. “The real world” is already full of spectators. We call them customers. If there is a hypocrisy at BM, it’s that the cost and time investment favors individuals who have benefited (financially) in the real world from “lurkers” who are willing to pay a modest fee to get their information instead of using those costs to learn to participate and cooperate with others. The only real remedy for individuals who struggle to participate in their own is to organize and form groups. And this work is difficult and people’s feelings will be hurt and they will suffer cognitive dissonance with our dominant culture of consumption and consumerism. So in the end I would take a line from within the Python community: be excellent to each other.

grp000 5y ago

I think OP's comment feels pretty valid, especially in an in-person event like burning man. There is a divide between participant and passive viewer. As a participant you give, and as a passive viewer you take, which can feel like an unfair arrangement, and there is a big difference between "being present" and "being fully present" which is a level of commitment burning man wants for the festival-goers. While there's nothing wrong with lurking (I think we all mostly lurk in low commitment subjects and are active in a much smaller amount of things that really interest us), it presents a fairness of effort and commitment to require participation from everyone.

jonnyone 5y ago
I should be clear that I agree with the sentiment of the Burning Man saying as it applies to Burning Man and events like Burning Man, I was just nitpicking the language of the curator. I happen to be part of a group that sometimes hosts events and it does feel like a faux pas when somebody asks if they can 'just watch.' But I think it goes to show the weakness of the analogy with social media, because participation and observation are very much different things on the internet than in person. I think that's a net benefit, because people can observe (and learn) without intruding in most cases.

WJW 5y ago

> I don't like that Burning Man curator's quote calling their saying a form of "inclusivity" when it doesn't include the lurker. Indeed. If you explicitly provide no space for spectators, that just means you radically reduce the set of people who want to participate at all. There are plenty of lurking-friendly spaces elsewhere so I don't think that Burning Man needs to change the policy or anything, but to pretend that it is super inclusive because the excluded group is not even present is just not true. In fact, Burning man can be said to epitomize the western secular idea that individual freedom is the highest good. There are plenty of cultures where this idea is not considered to be true. Even in the US, you can find lots of (evangelical) groups that would find people having orgies, doing drugs, not praying and in a general sense indulging themselves without thinking about God and society an abhorrent idea. In general, all cultures where some sort of patriarchal/matriarchal hierarchy is the norm (ie the tribe elders get to decide for everyone what is best) would fare pretty poorly at Burning Man I think.

xtiansimon 5y ago
>> “I don't like that Burning Man curator's quote calling their saying a form of "inclusivity" when it doesn't include the lurker.” > “Indeed. If you explicitly provide no space for spectators…” I think of this very differently. Burning Man has grown organically with the dawn of the Information Age. It is a product of it. No matter how you use the Internet, when it comes to learning and engagement, look at the origins—sharing of scientific information. You are a scientist/artist. You do things. You publish and promote your work in the vein of the scientific method—-making reasoned claims of truth which a stand on their own merit until proven false. It’s not a stretch to make a similar statement of art. It’s a virtuous cycle, no? If you are “lurking” then you are not contributing to the cycle but only benefiting from it. Not participating is a mistake, and failure. It’s a mistake because the health of the Internet is measured in truth. The actual financial cost can be very low, creating your own original works and expressions of truth. “The real world” is already full of spectators. We call them customers. If there is a hypocrisy at BM, it’s that the cost and time investment favors individuals who have benefited (financially) in the real world from “lurkers” who are willing to pay a modest fee to get their information instead of using those costs to learn to participate and cooperate with others. The only real remedy for individuals who struggle to participate in their own is to organize and form groups. And this work is difficult and people’s feelings will be hurt and they will suffer cognitive dissonance with our dominant culture of consumption and consumerism. So in the end I would take a line from within the Python community: be excellent to each other.