7 ms·

I know very few people who want attention from strangers when they go out in public. Most of us want to be left alone while we go about our business. Online pro

I know very few people who want attention from strangers when they go out in public. Most of us want to be left alone while we go about our business. Online provides a forum for people to get the sort of attention we might like. "Look what I can do!" or "Look at me!" Still, one of my gripes about social media is that there are so many people who lurk. The lurkers are there to look at people attempting to get attention. The attention seekers are acting. They are on a stage. Nobody is confusing the act for the real person except the young and naive. The lurkers are the audience. Lurkers don't contribute anything (most won't hit the like button, much less comment, even if later the tell me "I loved your post"). The quiet ones are not "homeless." Burning Man attempts to solve this with the no spectators rule: “‘No Spectators’ is a long-standing saying on Playa. You are encouraged to fully participate. It’s all about being there, being fully present, and not just observing. Two of the ten principles of Burning Man are radical participation and radical inclusivity, meaning that there are no outsiders. Everyone is part of the experience.” – Nora Atkinson, The Fleur and Charles Bresler Curator-in-Charge, Renwick Gallery Again, nobody is confusing the Burning Man persona with who they are back at the office after the event is over. People try things out, take mind altering drugs. Identity is fluid. Social media isn't bad because it is fake. Social media is good because it is fake. "...we tend to see other people’s lives as works of art." Sometimes, but most people aren't that good at performance.

disantlor 5y ago
I appreciate that this is a novel non-knee-jerk take on social media but not sure I fully buy it, mostly because the way commerce/the algorithm modifies this “stage” in real time. Art/performance always has and will have some commercial aspect, but it’s usually appears before and after but not during. Maybe the closest analog would be the improvising comedian that takes the set into a direction depending on what people laugh at. But then how do you account for the total opaque interests/influence of the algorithm?
- okareaman 5y ago
  Thank you and yes, the algorithm is a problem. I may have a funny thing that one set of friends like, but the algorithm shows it to another set who don't get it because it wasn't for them, but because they logged on first or some other algorithmic input they get it and the others don't. Maybe FB should let me input hints on who I intend it for.
  - AlexCoventry 5y ago
    > Maybe FB should let me input hints on who I intend it for. They do, but you have to pay for the privilege.
    - stadium 5y ago
      Can you elaborate? Paid advertising?
  - stadium 5y ago
    The algorithm should be the service! I can tune my feed to receive whatever I want to optimize on, instead of what is most engaging and profitable to send to me.
  - mkr-hn 5y ago
    This was the idea behind Google+'s circles.
capiki 5y ago
> “Nobody is confusing the act for the real person except the young and naive.” Aren’t many people (most?) who use social media young and naive?
- okareaman 5y ago
  Mostly older people use Facebook and real identities. I don't have a lot of experience with mediums that young people use like Instagram and Tik Tok, but I'm under the impression that people goof around and try to outdo each other. Even young people use it in a sophisticated way. I was thinking of the young and naive, like people teens who first get on it (but they learn fast.)
username90 5y ago
Facebook became popular because it was possibly to just observe and not be forced to participate. Everything before Facebook told you when and who viewed your content, Facebook didn't and explicitly banned any sort of apps tat could log who saw your stuff. So forcing participation sounds good in theory but in practice people love to lurk and hates being seen, even those who produce content. And since Facebook every new social media phenomena like Twitter or Instagram also doesn't show you who looked around at your stuff, so allowing non participation is a must in any social media today for it to become popular.
- AlexCoventry 5y ago
  > since Facebook every new social media phenomena like Twitter or Instagram also doesn't show you who looked around at your stuff, LinkedIn seems to.
  - tayo42 5y ago
    Same for Instagram stories and snap chat and I'd guess Facebook does too?
  - username90 5y ago
    LinkedIn is older than facebook.
- rektide 5y ago
  MySpace, LiveJournal,... none of these had surveillance built in. I'm not sure what "Everything before Facebook" you are referring to, but I can't think of a single system I used that let me surveil my readers.
  - username90 5y ago
    Myspace let people track everyone who visited their page, that it wasn't a default doesn't matter when everyone just installed their own trackers. Same thing with live journal. They didn't try to stop the practice, instead they encouraged it and had guides how to do it. Facebook was the first to ban all sorts of tracking.
jancsika 5y ago
> “‘No Spectators’ is a long-standing saying on Playa. You are encouraged to fully participate. It’s all about being there, being fully present, and not just observing. Two of the ten principles of Burning Man are radical participation and radical inclusivity, meaning that there are no outsiders. Everyone is part of the experience.” That sounds like shit the big head on the screen would yell at Winston in the opening chapter of an updated 1984.
- rektide 5y ago
  Strong disagreement here! 1984 was about an opiated, programmed masses. Everyone was heads down, keeping to themselves in that world, doing as they were told, receptive. It was the ultimate spectator culture. Subservience was required, radical participation, radical inclusivity (thinking of others) was not. You might be scared of strong messaging- a common thema to both scenarios- but the messages are about as opposite as it gets: RECEIVE versus BE. Since being a school kid, I have felt that a lot of the world keeps a very very very strong filter up. They don't engage, they don't see most of the world around them, they selectively pick & choose a very limited part of the world to acknowledge & engage in. It's taken me a long long time to see & acknowledge how scary the world can be, to learn to empathize with how burdensome the outside world is, how infrequently being non-spectator & being receptive & engaged is rewarded, how usually slim those rewards are. In many ways, there's a bit of a tragedy, especially in cities, where engaged people too often are not entirely well, not entirely kind, are not just engaged or interested benevolently but angling to attention, up to something. I still really prefer a world where we can be heads up, aware of each other, aware of the world about us, casually participatory with each other as we go about. It's such a waste of personage, of society, when people keep to themselves, wrap themselves in their tight knit world, shut themselves off to the world: radical participation seems like such a natural expectation, such a natural way for each of us to be ante-ing in, a little bit, to the world we inhabit. Inclusivity to not tune each other out. But alas, yes, there is also quite the din in the world, many visible & worse & more dangerously many not obviously apparent unpleasant noisemakers out there, good reasons to just go about quietly, on your way, staying in your own world.
  - tonyarkles 5y ago
jonnyone 5y ago
>Online provides a forum for people to get the sort of attention we might like. "Look what I can do!" or "Look at me!" Still, one of my gripes about social media is that there are so many people who lurk. There's a lot to learn from lurking. My mother watches Tik Tok videos and doesn't post herself, but cooks more now than ever based on the ideas she sees on there. You can learn about a cultural trend, a social cause, a musician, a resource, etc. There are lurkers with agendas, sure, but many are just bored and don't take pictures of everything. Message boards like this offer even more to learn. Many people repeat what's already been said. The lurker respects this or has nothing to say and moves on. I don't like that Burning Man curator's quote calling their saying a form of "inclusivity" when it doesn't include the lurker. It also suggests that "being present" is necessarily not being observant, but doing things that are supposed to be done at their festival, which I don't agree with. That said, I'm sure a space like that would actively become less of what its meant to be if there were tons of people just spectating. They should own the exclusivity that they want.
- grp000 5y ago
  I think OP's comment feels pretty valid, especially in an in-person event like burning man. There is a divide between participant and passive viewer. As a participant you give, and as a passive viewer you take, which can feel like an unfair arrangement, and there is a big difference between "being present" and "being fully present" which is a level of commitment burning man wants for the festival-goers. While there's nothing wrong with lurking (I think we all mostly lurk in low commitment subjects and are active in a much smaller amount of things that really interest us), it presents a fairness of effort and commitment to require participation from everyone.
  - jonnyone 5y ago
    I should be clear that I agree with the sentiment of the Burning Man saying as it applies to Burning Man and events like Burning Man, I was just nitpicking the language of the curator. I happen to be part of a group that sometimes hosts events and it does feel like a faux pas when somebody asks if they can 'just watch.' But I think it goes to show the weakness of the analogy with social media, because participation and observation are very much different things on the internet than in person. I think that's a net benefit, because people can observe (and learn) without intruding in most cases.
AltonWells 5y ago
I lurk 99% of the time on HN. I no longer have any social media. Participation is not required for enjoyment.
tayo42 5y ago
This is what I find kind of bazaar with Instagram stories. What's the point of showing who sees it. But also people keep clicking to look so they can't be that bored by the content. I also think likes are pretty passive. Idk for me if I share something and all I get are likes, idk it feels weird it's very one way. I'd rather people comment and well do something social or nothing then just a like button click.
- Normal_gaussian 5y ago
  Heads up, you were after "bizarre" not "bazaar". A bazaar is a stall lined street/market; that said I could see with influencer culture being as it is maybe instagram is a bizarre bazaar!
  - tayo42 5y ago
    I seem to always make strange typos when posting from my phone lol
z0ltan 5y ago
Yeah, okay, buddy.
golergka 5y ago
> Burning Man attempts to solve this with the no spectators rule I think that people who choose to go to Burning Man or similar festivals probably score much higher on openness trait (from the big five). Also, psychedelics and certain euphoretics (such as MDMA) said to permanently increase this trait, too.
eporomaa 5y ago
>I know very few people who want attention from strangers when they go out in public. How do you define attention? From what I can tell almost everyone wants attention from strangers in some form. I know very few people who deliberately dress to not be seen.

disantlor 5y ago

I appreciate that this is a novel non-knee-jerk take on social media but not sure I fully buy it, mostly because the way commerce/the algorithm modifies this “stage” in real time. Art/performance always has and will have some commercial aspect, but it’s usually appears before and after but not during. Maybe the closest analog would be the improvising comedian that takes the set into a direction depending on what people laugh at. But then how do you account for the total opaque interests/influence of the algorithm?

okareaman 5y ago
Thank you and yes, the algorithm is a problem. I may have a funny thing that one set of friends like, but the algorithm shows it to another set who don't get it because it wasn't for them, but because they logged on first or some other algorithmic input they get it and the others don't. Maybe FB should let me input hints on who I intend it for.
- AlexCoventry 5y ago
  > Maybe FB should let me input hints on who I intend it for. They do, but you have to pay for the privilege.
  - stadium 5y ago
    Can you elaborate? Paid advertising?
- stadium 5y ago
  The algorithm should be the service! I can tune my feed to receive whatever I want to optimize on, instead of what is most engaging and profitable to send to me.
- mkr-hn 5y ago
  This was the idea behind Google+'s circles.

capiki 5y ago

> “Nobody is confusing the act for the real person except the young and naive.” Aren’t many people (most?) who use social media young and naive?

okareaman 5y ago
Mostly older people use Facebook and real identities. I don't have a lot of experience with mediums that young people use like Instagram and Tik Tok, but I'm under the impression that people goof around and try to outdo each other. Even young people use it in a sophisticated way. I was thinking of the young and naive, like people teens who first get on it (but they learn fast.)

username90 5y ago

Facebook became popular because it was possibly to just observe and not be forced to participate. Everything before Facebook told you when and who viewed your content, Facebook didn't and explicitly banned any sort of apps tat could log who saw your stuff. So forcing participation sounds good in theory but in practice people love to lurk and hates being seen, even those who produce content. And since Facebook every new social media phenomena like Twitter or Instagram also doesn't show you who looked around at your stuff, so allowing non participation is a must in any social media today for it to become popular.

AlexCoventry 5y ago
> since Facebook every new social media phenomena like Twitter or Instagram also doesn't show you who looked around at your stuff, LinkedIn seems to.
- tayo42 5y ago
  Same for Instagram stories and snap chat and I'd guess Facebook does too?
- username90 5y ago
  LinkedIn is older than facebook.
rektide 5y ago
MySpace, LiveJournal,... none of these had surveillance built in. I'm not sure what "Everything before Facebook" you are referring to, but I can't think of a single system I used that let me surveil my readers.
- username90 5y ago
  Myspace let people track everyone who visited their page, that it wasn't a default doesn't matter when everyone just installed their own trackers. Same thing with live journal. They didn't try to stop the practice, instead they encouraged it and had guides how to do it. Facebook was the first to ban all sorts of tracking.

jancsika 5y ago

> “‘No Spectators’ is a long-standing saying on Playa. You are encouraged to fully participate. It’s all about being there, being fully present, and not just observing. Two of the ten principles of Burning Man are radical participation and radical inclusivity, meaning that there are no outsiders. Everyone is part of the experience.” That sounds like shit the big head on the screen would yell at Winston in the opening chapter of an updated 1984.

rektide 5y ago
Strong disagreement here! 1984 was about an opiated, programmed masses. Everyone was heads down, keeping to themselves in that world, doing as they were told, receptive. It was the ultimate spectator culture. Subservience was required, radical participation, radical inclusivity (thinking of others) was not. You might be scared of strong messaging- a common thema to both scenarios- but the messages are about as opposite as it gets: RECEIVE versus BE. Since being a school kid, I have felt that a lot of the world keeps a very very very strong filter up. They don't engage, they don't see most of the world around them, they selectively pick & choose a very limited part of the world to acknowledge & engage in. It's taken me a long long time to see & acknowledge how scary the world can be, to learn to empathize with how burdensome the outside world is, how infrequently being non-spectator & being receptive & engaged is rewarded, how usually slim those rewards are. In many ways, there's a bit of a tragedy, especially in cities, where engaged people too often are not entirely well, not entirely kind, are not just engaged or interested benevolently but angling to attention, up to something. I still really prefer a world where we can be heads up, aware of each other, aware of the world about us, casually participatory with each other as we go about. It's such a waste of personage, of society, when people keep to themselves, wrap themselves in their tight knit world, shut themselves off to the world: radical participation seems like such a natural expectation, such a natural way for each of us to be ante-ing in, a little bit, to the world we inhabit. Inclusivity to not tune each other out. But alas, yes, there is also quite the din in the world, many visible & worse & more dangerously many not obviously apparent unpleasant noisemakers out there, good reasons to just go about quietly, on your way, staying in your own world.
- tonyarkles 5y ago

jonnyone 5y ago

>Online provides a forum for people to get the sort of attention we might like. "Look what I can do!" or "Look at me!" Still, one of my gripes about social media is that there are so many people who lurk. There's a lot to learn from lurking. My mother watches Tik Tok videos and doesn't post herself, but cooks more now than ever based on the ideas she sees on there. You can learn about a cultural trend, a social cause, a musician, a resource, etc. There are lurkers with agendas, sure, but many are just bored and don't take pictures of everything. Message boards like this offer even more to learn. Many people repeat what's already been said. The lurker respects this or has nothing to say and moves on. I don't like that Burning Man curator's quote calling their saying a form of "inclusivity" when it doesn't include the lurker. It also suggests that "being present" is necessarily not being observant, but doing things that are supposed to be done at their festival, which I don't agree with. That said, I'm sure a space like that would actively become less of what its meant to be if there were tons of people just spectating. They should own the exclusivity that they want.

grp000 5y ago
I think OP's comment feels pretty valid, especially in an in-person event like burning man. There is a divide between participant and passive viewer. As a participant you give, and as a passive viewer you take, which can feel like an unfair arrangement, and there is a big difference between "being present" and "being fully present" which is a level of commitment burning man wants for the festival-goers. While there's nothing wrong with lurking (I think we all mostly lurk in low commitment subjects and are active in a much smaller amount of things that really interest us), it presents a fairness of effort and commitment to require participation from everyone.
- jonnyone 5y ago
  I should be clear that I agree with the sentiment of the Burning Man saying as it applies to Burning Man and events like Burning Man, I was just nitpicking the language of the curator. I happen to be part of a group that sometimes hosts events and it does feel like a faux pas when somebody asks if they can 'just watch.' But I think it goes to show the weakness of the analogy with social media, because participation and observation are very much different things on the internet than in person. I think that's a net benefit, because people can observe (and learn) without intruding in most cases.

AltonWells 5y ago

I lurk 99% of the time on HN. I no longer have any social media. Participation is not required for enjoyment.

tayo42 5y ago

This is what I find kind of bazaar with Instagram stories. What's the point of showing who sees it. But also people keep clicking to look so they can't be that bored by the content. I also think likes are pretty passive. Idk for me if I share something and all I get are likes, idk it feels weird it's very one way. I'd rather people comment and well do something social or nothing then just a like button click.

Normal_gaussian 5y ago
Heads up, you were after "bizarre" not "bazaar". A bazaar is a stall lined street/market; that said I could see with influencer culture being as it is maybe instagram is a bizarre bazaar!
- tayo42 5y ago
  I seem to always make strange typos when posting from my phone lol

z0ltan 5y ago

Yeah, okay, buddy.

golergka 5y ago

> Burning Man attempts to solve this with the no spectators rule I think that people who choose to go to Burning Man or similar festivals probably score much higher on openness trait (from the big five). Also, psychedelics and certain euphoretics (such as MDMA) said to permanently increase this trait, too.

eporomaa 5y ago

>I know very few people who want attention from strangers when they go out in public. How do you define attention? From what I can tell almost everyone wants attention from strangers in some form. I know very few people who deliberately dress to not be seen.