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> How did we become so divorced from reality? Before criticizing those seeking a better life in questionable directions first ask why are they motivated to do

> How did we become so divorced from reality? Before criticizing those seeking a better life in questionable directions first ask why are they motivated to do so in the first place? This pattern predates COVID, what is the problem in the North East that is causing people to move south west? Answer that and you might have a clue as to why the migration is happening and what to do about it.

oh_sigh 5y ago
Right...and isn't the reality that a country as rich as America can afford to have people live in places which aren't directly compatible with life? Power and water seem to be the most important aspects regarding quality of life. I'm not worried about power because the southwest has tons of solar power available. And I'm not worried about water in the southwest because, yes, the Colorado river is oversubscribed, but only about 10-15% of it is used for residential use. The bulk of it goes to agricultural uses who are greatly underpaying for their water access and using it to grow ridiculous crops like cotton in Arizona. If there ever really was a crunch, those water rights would be obtained to let people drink and shower instead of to grow those crops (either through buying out, or just straight highway robbery).
- AtlasBarfed 5y ago
  America is a country run by rich people for rich people, not a rich country. Saying "America is a rich country" is a classic demonstration of the difference between median and mean in statistics.
  - oh_sigh 5y ago
    Do you think Phoenix is full of rich people? And yet, there they are, in the middle of the desert, somehow not all dying of thirst while the 1% waters their multi-acre front lawn.
  - sologoub 5y ago
    For US Median ~63k vs mean ~73k: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_Unit... Germany (typically used as an example of a wealthy country in EU) is ~49k mean (average), so US has higher median and mean income than Germany. One can get into services, etc, but still US is a rich country. Once you get much past north west of EU, things get decidedly poor. While situation is not ideal in the US, most Americans have considerably more luxuries in their lives (in other words higher consumption of goods and services). Whether we are consuming and prioritizing the wrong things is a different question, and I suspect your criticism is more aimed at what do we actually get in return for this wealth/consumption.
    - AtlasBarfed 5y ago
      You should know better, come on, income is pretty much bullshit when it comes to the rich. They don't make "income" since that is taxed. This has been true since Leona Helmsley and Cheers with the CEO making 1$ per year. The rich have wealth. There was just a propublica about this. Anyone that knows anything about capital gains, stock options, etc (and I'm assuming you do since you are commenting on a forum run by a startup farm)
      - sologoub 5y ago
        Stock options and RSUs are largely taxed as ordinary income. There is a way to forward exercise options and save, but that’s super rare for non-founders (and only super successful at that). While I agree that the truly wealthy have ways to structure their wealth to reduce tax burden, vast majority work for a living and don’t have such perks.
mjevans 5y ago
A missing future. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs Shelter, rent out of control, let alone a house that might be within reach of purchase, is economic insanity. We don't usually think about shortage of food, water, and comfortable temperature; within the US anyway. Not if someone has even a basic job. Housing also builds to the safety and security aspect. Relationships, a sense of belonging, I've found it very difficult knowing that I'll move because I rent, there's seemingly no point to investing in anything resembling a sense of community, let alone personal relationships. Esteem is a related issue, as is self fulfillment.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  > Shelter, rent out of control, let alone a house that might be within reach of purchase, is economic insanity. This describes west coast cities more I would say. SF Bay Area in particular. North East has many places that are far more affordable than west coast cities. Even rural housing in California is expensive.

oh_sigh 5y ago

Right...and isn't the reality that a country as rich as America can afford to have people live in places which aren't directly compatible with life? Power and water seem to be the most important aspects regarding quality of life. I'm not worried about power because the southwest has tons of solar power available. And I'm not worried about water in the southwest because, yes, the Colorado river is oversubscribed, but only about 10-15% of it is used for residential use. The bulk of it goes to agricultural uses who are greatly underpaying for their water access and using it to grow ridiculous crops like cotton in Arizona. If there ever really was a crunch, those water rights would be obtained to let people drink and shower instead of to grow those crops (either through buying out, or just straight highway robbery).

AtlasBarfed 5y ago
America is a country run by rich people for rich people, not a rich country. Saying "America is a rich country" is a classic demonstration of the difference between median and mean in statistics.
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  Do you think Phoenix is full of rich people? And yet, there they are, in the middle of the desert, somehow not all dying of thirst while the 1% waters their multi-acre front lawn.
- sologoub 5y ago
  For US Median ~63k vs mean ~73k: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_Unit... Germany (typically used as an example of a wealthy country in EU) is ~49k mean (average), so US has higher median and mean income than Germany. One can get into services, etc, but still US is a rich country. Once you get much past north west of EU, things get decidedly poor. While situation is not ideal in the US, most Americans have considerably more luxuries in their lives (in other words higher consumption of goods and services). Whether we are consuming and prioritizing the wrong things is a different question, and I suspect your criticism is more aimed at what do we actually get in return for this wealth/consumption.
  - AtlasBarfed 5y ago
    You should know better, come on, income is pretty much bullshit when it comes to the rich. They don't make "income" since that is taxed. This has been true since Leona Helmsley and Cheers with the CEO making 1$ per year. The rich have wealth. There was just a propublica about this. Anyone that knows anything about capital gains, stock options, etc (and I'm assuming you do since you are commenting on a forum run by a startup farm)
    - sologoub 5y ago
      Stock options and RSUs are largely taxed as ordinary income. There is a way to forward exercise options and save, but that’s super rare for non-founders (and only super successful at that). While I agree that the truly wealthy have ways to structure their wealth to reduce tax burden, vast majority work for a living and don’t have such perks.

mjevans 5y ago

A missing future. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs Shelter, rent out of control, let alone a house that might be within reach of purchase, is economic insanity. We don't usually think about shortage of food, water, and comfortable temperature; within the US anyway. Not if someone has even a basic job. Housing also builds to the safety and security aspect. Relationships, a sense of belonging, I've found it very difficult knowing that I'll move because I rent, there's seemingly no point to investing in anything resembling a sense of community, let alone personal relationships. Esteem is a related issue, as is self fulfillment.

systemvoltage 5y ago
> Shelter, rent out of control, let alone a house that might be within reach of purchase, is economic insanity. This describes west coast cities more I would say. SF Bay Area in particular. North East has many places that are far more affordable than west coast cities. Even rural housing in California is expensive.