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> The only "data" going out is your region (e.g. the United States). Every request Brave makes "home" will transfer private data like IP address of the user an

> The only "data" going out is your region (e.g. the United States). Every request Brave makes "home" will transfer private data like IP address of the user and browser fingerprint, regardless of the payload. Can you clarify what is done with this data? Also if it is true what says in the article that some requests "home" can not be disabled, why is that the case?

dane-pgp 5y ago
> private data like IP address of the user and browser fingerprint Presumably it would send the same data whenever it checks for software updates too. I can't think of a threat model where downloading updates and downloading ads are different in terms of user privacy (except, of course, that a malicious update can do far more harm).
jonathansampson 5y ago
What browser fingerprint are you seeing in your research? I don't believe Leith et al found any such issue in their review at https://www.scss.tcd.ie/Doug.Leith/pubs/browser_privacy.pdf https://www.scss.tcd.ie/Doug.Leith/pubs/browser_privacy.pdf, nor did I in https://brave.com/popular-browsers-first-run/ https://brave.com/popular-browsers-first-run/. I'm happy to discuss any requests you like; we also document all of this to the best of our ability on GitHub as well (https://github.com/brave/brave-browser/wiki https://github.com/brave/brave-browser/wiki). As for disabling requests, this is a valid petition. Our goal is to have no extra requests when and where possible. We've worked hard to keep them to a minimal. There are some requests (e.g. product update requests) that we've been hesitant to make more easily blockable, since this could potentially leave large swaths of Brave users disconnected, and increasingly vulnerable.
- freediver 5y ago
  Thanks for the attempt to clarify. My question was, what do you do with the IP address of the user that you get through these “phone-home” requests and I think it is left unanswered? > We've worked hard to keep them to a minimal. How is 80 requests minimal? (source: your own above-mentioned article). It seems to me that 0 requests would be minimal. What is preventing Brave from being a zero-telemetry browser by default?
  - jonathansampson 5y ago
    We drop the IP address. When needed, we'll convert it to a regional identifier (e.g. United States) so that we can have a count of how many users are in the US, UK, etc. I'm not sure where you saw 80 request; my network analysis post (https://brave.com/popular-browsers-first-run/ https://brave.com/popular-browsers-first-run/) shows Brave issuing 70 requests over a 10-minute period. Compare with Chrome (91 requests), Firefox (2,799 requests), Edge (367 requests), and Opera (106 requests). 0 requests is not realistic, IMHO. When you launch a browser you want to make sure the user has a fresh local DB of known-malicious URLs (so you don't have to pipe each request through a look-up service, like Opera does) for client-side checking. You also want to make sure the client has an updated list of blocking rules for other types of content. There's quite a bit of setup needed when you launch a web browser. Zero telemetry is unwise, assuming you want to build a product that works for a diverse set of users, devices, and environments. The main issue here is not whether you collect telemetry, but [how] you do so, and what that looks like. Brave is careful to preclude abuse from the design phase; see https://www.brave.com/p3a https://www.brave.com/p3a for more on how we handle Privacy-Preserving Product Analytics.
    - freediver 5y ago
      >0 requests is not realistic, IMHO. When you launch a browser you want to make sure the user has a fresh local DB of known-malicious URLs (so you don't have to pipe each request through a look-up service, like Opera does) for client-side checking. You also want to make sure the client has an updated list of blocking rules for other types of content. There's quite a bit of setup needed when you launch a web browser. It is quite realistic and possible. Both examples you gave can be opt-in. Perhaps I do not want my browser to arbitrarly show a malicious URL warning. Updating content blocker can and should be opt-in as well. Maybe particular rule set work well for my setup and I do not want the update to break it. And maybe I just do not want the browser to send requests home. And even if both of these are enabled these should be just two requests - what is going on in the remaining 68? It just looks like a very high number even if it is smallest among other test browsers (which doesn't make Brave good, just makes every tested browser broken in this regard). >Zero telemetry is unwise, assuming you want to build a product that works for a diverse set of users, devices, and environments. This is based on what? You should really provide an argument when making a bold claim like this. Zero telemetry should be the corner-stone of any privacy respecting product. Only zero telemetry ensures and guarantees that user privacy will be 100% respected. Everything else, even sending just one unwanted request "home" or anywhere else, can and should raise valid questions about what is done with the data including IP address since this will be closed source even in an open-source browser like Brave.

dane-pgp 5y ago

> private data like IP address of the user and browser fingerprint Presumably it would send the same data whenever it checks for software updates too. I can't think of a threat model where downloading updates and downloading ads are different in terms of user privacy (except, of course, that a malicious update can do far more harm).

jonathansampson 5y ago

What browser fingerprint are you seeing in your research? I don't believe Leith et al found any such issue in their review at https://www.scss.tcd.ie/Doug.Leith/pubs/browser_privacy.pdf https://www.scss.tcd.ie/Doug.Leith/pubs/browser_privacy.pdf, nor did I in https://brave.com/popular-browsers-first-run/ https://brave.com/popular-browsers-first-run/. I'm happy to discuss any requests you like; we also document all of this to the best of our ability on GitHub as well (https://github.com/brave/brave-browser/wiki https://github.com/brave/brave-browser/wiki). As for disabling requests, this is a valid petition. Our goal is to have no extra requests when and where possible. We've worked hard to keep them to a minimal. There are some requests (e.g. product update requests) that we've been hesitant to make more easily blockable, since this could potentially leave large swaths of Brave users disconnected, and increasingly vulnerable.

freediver 5y ago
Thanks for the attempt to clarify. My question was, what do you do with the IP address of the user that you get through these “phone-home” requests and I think it is left unanswered? > We've worked hard to keep them to a minimal. How is 80 requests minimal? (source: your own above-mentioned article). It seems to me that 0 requests would be minimal. What is preventing Brave from being a zero-telemetry browser by default?
- jonathansampson 5y ago
  We drop the IP address. When needed, we'll convert it to a regional identifier (e.g. United States) so that we can have a count of how many users are in the US, UK, etc. I'm not sure where you saw 80 request; my network analysis post (https://brave.com/popular-browsers-first-run/ https://brave.com/popular-browsers-first-run/) shows Brave issuing 70 requests over a 10-minute period. Compare with Chrome (91 requests), Firefox (2,799 requests), Edge (367 requests), and Opera (106 requests). 0 requests is not realistic, IMHO. When you launch a browser you want to make sure the user has a fresh local DB of known-malicious URLs (so you don't have to pipe each request through a look-up service, like Opera does) for client-side checking. You also want to make sure the client has an updated list of blocking rules for other types of content. There's quite a bit of setup needed when you launch a web browser. Zero telemetry is unwise, assuming you want to build a product that works for a diverse set of users, devices, and environments. The main issue here is not whether you collect telemetry, but [how] you do so, and what that looks like. Brave is careful to preclude abuse from the design phase; see https://www.brave.com/p3a https://www.brave.com/p3a for more on how we handle Privacy-Preserving Product Analytics.
  - freediver 5y ago
    >0 requests is not realistic, IMHO. When you launch a browser you want to make sure the user has a fresh local DB of known-malicious URLs (so you don't have to pipe each request through a look-up service, like Opera does) for client-side checking. You also want to make sure the client has an updated list of blocking rules for other types of content. There's quite a bit of setup needed when you launch a web browser. It is quite realistic and possible. Both examples you gave can be opt-in. Perhaps I do not want my browser to arbitrarly show a malicious URL warning. Updating content blocker can and should be opt-in as well. Maybe particular rule set work well for my setup and I do not want the update to break it. And maybe I just do not want the browser to send requests home. And even if both of these are enabled these should be just two requests - what is going on in the remaining 68? It just looks like a very high number even if it is smallest among other test browsers (which doesn't make Brave good, just makes every tested browser broken in this regard). >Zero telemetry is unwise, assuming you want to build a product that works for a diverse set of users, devices, and environments. This is based on what? You should really provide an argument when making a bold claim like this. Zero telemetry should be the corner-stone of any privacy respecting product. Only zero telemetry ensures and guarantees that user privacy will be 100% respected. Everything else, even sending just one unwanted request "home" or anywhere else, can and should raise valid questions about what is done with the data including IP address since this will be closed source even in an open-source browser like Brave.