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Yes. I don't know what the DLC will be (personally I hope for water- and air-borne structures, vehicles and enemies), but I am sure I will pay for it.

by js8 5y ago

ashtonkem 5y ago
I was planning to, but then I saw Kovarex bear his metaphorical ass on the subreddit, and now I'm conflicted.
- js8 5y ago
  Oh god, you should really think about what a freedom of speech is (suggested reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair). People should have right not to be involved in political discussions, and so they should have the right to tell people to take it elsewhere, even harshly. I am no right-winger (in fact, I am a socialist), but I understand why Kovarex said what he said, and I think he had a right to do it. Yes, civilized discourse is important, but it's also important to respect individual freedom not to be pushed into such discourse from random Reddit hecklers. I suppose it offends your sensibilities not because Kovarex did anything immoral, but because of his word choice. And honestly, I hate this surface level of analysis, where we judge the morality of a person by looking only at the words they use. It's counterproductive to addressing real problems, as there are far too many real villains in this world that are very nice in person.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    > Oh god, you should really think about what a freedom of speech is. You're free to read my comment history on this subject matter rather than just making an assumption and patronizing me. You'll probably find that it's more persuasive to actually engage with people than treat them like an idiot right out of the gate. > but I understand why Kovarex said what he said, and I think he had a right to do it Who claimed that he didn't have the right to say that? This is a weak straw man; nobody is claiming that he can't say that, merely that he shouldn't. > I suppose it offends your sensibilities not because Kovarex did anything immoral, but because of his word choice. ... yeah? That's kind of how people work. How you communicate matters. Pretending that we should all just ignore him telling a fan to "shove it up your ass" is to basically ignore how humans actually work and think. > And honestly, I hate this surface level of analysis, where we judge the morality of a person by looking only at the words they use. As compared to what, mind reading? Literally all I have is his words online, and they're toxic and combative. I also really dislike that you're upgrading this to "morality" when my original point was about whether I wanted to do business with him. I feel like this is a neat way to side step my freedom to not do business with him. > It's counterproductive to addressing real problems. So what, I can't make my own decisions based on someone else's behavior because there are other issues? I'm obligated to give him money after he behaved like an asshole because reasons? How absurd.
    - wetmore 5y ago
      As an outside observer I find it weird that you two are arguing about an event without any reference to what that event was. What did Kovarex say?
      - ashtonkem 5y ago
        A lot, more than I can summarize here. Here's the link to where the drama begins, feel free to peruse. https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/o2ly6f/friday_facts_366_the_only_way_to_go_fast_is_to_go/h273tim https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/o2ly6f/friday_fac...
        a1369209993 5y ago
        I see nothing objectionable (at least by kovarex) there; perhaps you should link to the supposedly-ass-bearing comment rather than (or in addition to) the general thread?
        ashtonkem 5y ago
        His initial comment was “take your cancel culture and shove it up your ass”. The mods removed it for fairly obvious reasons. If that’s not enough for you, this gem seemed particularly objectionable to me: https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/o2ly6f/comment/h28beya https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/o2ly6f/comment/h2...
    - blindmute 5y ago
      It's my opinion that your reaction to his comment is, for lack of a better word, cringe. Personally, I am more likely to purchase the DLC now after seeing that the developer has a backbone. I don't understand the reaction you're having. He told someone completely unrelated to you to "Shove it up your ass," (justifiably, imo) on a reddit comment. It is very strange to me that this affects your decision to play Factorio.
    - js8 5y ago
      > nobody is claiming that he can't say that, merely that he shouldn't No, there is no practical difference between the "can't" and "shouldn't", if your intent is to participate in the punishment for what someone does. (Maybe you feel, as an individual, you cannot influence it. But in fact you can easily become part of the mob that does have the real power of punishing somebody.) > Pretending that we should all just ignore him telling a fan to "shove it up your ass" Yes, of course we should ignore it, it was just a heckler. Even a heckler can be a fan. Everybody can be an a* sometimes, and deserves to be called out about it. > As compared to what, mind reading? Compared to his actions, of course. If you don't have additional information, only words, think twice about acting upon such information. > you're upgrading this to "morality" when my original point was about whether I wanted to do business with him It's of course up to you. But why wouldn't you want to do business with him anymore for other reason than to uphold a moral standard? It isn't like he cheated you, in fact we probably agree that Factorio is a great product. The morality comes into it from reasoning about your response. In any case, I was speaking in a larger context. People do this all the time. For example, there are people who think Linus Torvalds is worse than Bill Gates because of the harsh words he sometimes uses (in public). To me, that is a very superficial way of looking at things. And same here, I think Kovarex is one of very few capitalists who actually deserve all the money they got. And that's so sad about all this "cancel culture" thing. It's boycotting people who are not necessarily the worst, just easy targets. > So what, I can't make my own decisions based on someone else's behavior because there are other issues? You can do whatever you want, all I am saying is you "shouldn't".

Yes. I don't know what the DLC will be (personally I hope for water- and air-borne structures, vehicles and enemies), but I am sure I will pay for it.

by js8 5y ago

Yes. I don't know what the DLC will be (personally I hope for water- and air-borne structures, vehicles and enemies), but I am sure I will pay for it.

ashtonkem 5y ago

I was planning to, but then I saw Kovarex bear his metaphorical ass on the subreddit, and now I'm conflicted.

js8 5y ago
Oh god, you should really think about what a freedom of speech is (suggested reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair). People should have right not to be involved in political discussions, and so they should have the right to tell people to take it elsewhere, even harshly. I am no right-winger (in fact, I am a socialist), but I understand why Kovarex said what he said, and I think he had a right to do it. Yes, civilized discourse is important, but it's also important to respect individual freedom not to be pushed into such discourse from random Reddit hecklers. I suppose it offends your sensibilities not because Kovarex did anything immoral, but because of his word choice. And honestly, I hate this surface level of analysis, where we judge the morality of a person by looking only at the words they use. It's counterproductive to addressing real problems, as there are far too many real villains in this world that are very nice in person.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  > Oh god, you should really think about what a freedom of speech is. You're free to read my comment history on this subject matter rather than just making an assumption and patronizing me. You'll probably find that it's more persuasive to actually engage with people than treat them like an idiot right out of the gate. > but I understand why Kovarex said what he said, and I think he had a right to do it Who claimed that he didn't have the right to say that? This is a weak straw man; nobody is claiming that he can't say that, merely that he shouldn't. > I suppose it offends your sensibilities not because Kovarex did anything immoral, but because of his word choice. ... yeah? That's kind of how people work. How you communicate matters. Pretending that we should all just ignore him telling a fan to "shove it up your ass" is to basically ignore how humans actually work and think. > And honestly, I hate this surface level of analysis, where we judge the morality of a person by looking only at the words they use. As compared to what, mind reading? Literally all I have is his words online, and they're toxic and combative. I also really dislike that you're upgrading this to "morality" when my original point was about whether I wanted to do business with him. I feel like this is a neat way to side step my freedom to not do business with him. > It's counterproductive to addressing real problems. So what, I can't make my own decisions based on someone else's behavior because there are other issues? I'm obligated to give him money after he behaved like an asshole because reasons? How absurd.
  - wetmore 5y ago
    As an outside observer I find it weird that you two are arguing about an event without any reference to what that event was. What did Kovarex say?
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      A lot, more than I can summarize here. Here's the link to where the drama begins, feel free to peruse. https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/o2ly6f/friday_facts_366_the_only_way_to_go_fast_is_to_go/h273tim https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/o2ly6f/friday_fac...
      - a1369209993 5y ago
        I see nothing objectionable (at least by kovarex) there; perhaps you should link to the supposedly-ass-bearing comment rather than (or in addition to) the general thread?
        ashtonkem 5y ago
        His initial comment was “take your cancel culture and shove it up your ass”. The mods removed it for fairly obvious reasons. If that’s not enough for you, this gem seemed particularly objectionable to me: https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/o2ly6f/comment/h28beya https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/o2ly6f/comment/h2...
  - blindmute 5y ago
    It's my opinion that your reaction to his comment is, for lack of a better word, cringe. Personally, I am more likely to purchase the DLC now after seeing that the developer has a backbone. I don't understand the reaction you're having. He told someone completely unrelated to you to "Shove it up your ass," (justifiably, imo) on a reddit comment. It is very strange to me that this affects your decision to play Factorio.
  - js8 5y ago
    > nobody is claiming that he can't say that, merely that he shouldn't No, there is no practical difference between the "can't" and "shouldn't", if your intent is to participate in the punishment for what someone does. (Maybe you feel, as an individual, you cannot influence it. But in fact you can easily become part of the mob that does have the real power of punishing somebody.) > Pretending that we should all just ignore him telling a fan to "shove it up your ass" Yes, of course we should ignore it, it was just a heckler. Even a heckler can be a fan. Everybody can be an a* sometimes, and deserves to be called out about it. > As compared to what, mind reading? Compared to his actions, of course. If you don't have additional information, only words, think twice about acting upon such information. > you're upgrading this to "morality" when my original point was about whether I wanted to do business with him It's of course up to you. But why wouldn't you want to do business with him anymore for other reason than to uphold a moral standard? It isn't like he cheated you, in fact we probably agree that Factorio is a great product. The morality comes into it from reasoning about your response. In any case, I was speaking in a larger context. People do this all the time. For example, there are people who think Linus Torvalds is worse than Bill Gates because of the harsh words he sometimes uses (in public). To me, that is a very superficial way of looking at things. And same here, I think Kovarex is one of very few capitalists who actually deserve all the money they got. And that's so sad about all this "cancel culture" thing. It's boycotting people who are not necessarily the worst, just easy targets. > So what, I can't make my own decisions based on someone else's behavior because there are other issues? You can do whatever you want, all I am saying is you "shouldn't".