5 ms·

Hamas is a movement with a religious fundamentalist basis, I don't think that "tolerance" is what you should expect from them. But this is not a beauty contest.

by Udik 5y ago

Hamas is a movement with a religious fundamentalist basis, I don't think that "tolerance" is what you should expect from them. But this is not a beauty contest. Just use Occam's razor: they call to "Jihad" (struggle) because foreigners have come and displaced them from their homeland (well beyond what the international community- including the western nations- considers legal). It is just preposterous to attribute racial or religious hatred to those who fight back an invasion of their homeland. If China came and invaded your land, would you fight back because you are an anti-Asian racist? And after all, wouldn't being invaded and oppressed by China make you a bit into a racist, at least on the long run and while the struggle stands?

TheGuyWhoCodes 5y ago
Everyone doesn't like a specific group doesn't matter what the basis is or reason, but that wasn't the point of the argument, that point was about dehumanization. You want to struggle against oppressors, ok , I get that but when you say you want the utter annihilation and destruction of a racial group when you praise and actively work to bomb busses, stab people in the street and in their homes, when you dig tunnels to pop up in the Kibbutz dining room, when you blow incendiary balloons that destroy forests and nature reserves killing countless wild life you are not human, you are an evil daemon that should be eradicated just as was done with nazi Germany and ISIS.
- Udik 5y ago
  > when you say you want the utter annihilation and destruction of a racial group We already established that they don't say that. > when you praise and actively work to bomb busses, stab people in the street and in their homes... If your country had been invaded and utterly militarily overwhelmed by another country, now intent on building cities and installing their population on your former land, what would you do to free it, where would you stop and just throw your arms up and say "well, I can't do anything"? In a situation like that, there will always be someone who is willing to use any means to make the occupation and the oppression as costly as possible for the oppressor. It's not racial hatred, it's that when you cannot hit the army you'll hit whatever you can. When Israel will have given back all the territory that has illegally appropriated (illegally according to the western nations, not some backwards middle Eastern dictatorship) then it will be in a position to denounce any continuing terrorism from Hamas. Before that, it's just complaining because its victims fight back.
  - TheGuyWhoCodes 5y ago
    > We already established that they don't say that. We haven't, you didn't. > when you cannot hit the army They do but it's just easier to just cut a fence and stab children sleeping, that's not legitimate struggle that's barbarism and terrorisms. > willing to use any means That's exactly the point, when the end justify the means. What they do, how they operate that's evil. It has nothing to do with justice. > your country had been invaded The PLO was founded in 64 way before any occupation of the west bank and gaza so your point of fighting your oppressor is moot unless you consider the occupation the entire state of Israel then your legal argument is void. They didn't struggle against their Egyptian and Jordanian "occupation" but when it's Jews, oy vey.
    - sofixa 5y ago
      > The PLO was founded in 64 way before any occupation of the west bank and gaza so your point of fighting your oppressor is moot unless you consider the occupation the entire state of Israel then your legal argument is void And ~50 years after Palestinians were promised self-rule, Jews were promised the right to move to Palestine, and Palestinians said they're against the mass migration of Jews there that displaced them. Why is it that you think Palestinians only have the right to Gaza and the West Bank when they were the majority across the whole of Palestine less than a hundred years ago ( what, two generations?) ? The PLO didn't see it that way in 64, only a few decades after Palestinians had their land stolen ans themselves evicted from it by new settlers.
      - TheGuyWhoCodes 5y ago
        > Palestinians said they're against the mass migration of Jews Ofc they would. So what? They weren't the rulers or had any form of government, most of the land didn't belong to them no matter how gerrymandering maps you want to draw. It was the British mandate before the ottoman before that..... > mass migration of Jews there that displaced them It didn't. The land Jews settled on was purchased since the 1880s. A lot of those Palestinians were immigrants themselves who came to Palestine for work, and the Jewish population were the ones that hired them. Most of Palestine before the Jews started to immigrate and built was deserts and swamps, no one wanted to live there until the Jewish population terraformed them to be livable. > Why is it that you think Palestinians only have the right to Gaza and the West Bank Because they lost the war they started, you can't start a war lose and then cry that you lost territory. They didn't want a Jewish state at all, or be under Jewish rule. That's how countries form, that's how borders are made. Every other country in the world was formed by conflict it's just that most of those countries annihilated the other side long ago so there is almost no one left to hear their voice or go on a twitter rampage.

by Udik 5y ago

TheGuyWhoCodes 5y ago

Everyone doesn't like a specific group doesn't matter what the basis is or reason, but that wasn't the point of the argument, that point was about dehumanization. You want to struggle against oppressors, ok , I get that but when you say you want the utter annihilation and destruction of a racial group when you praise and actively work to bomb busses, stab people in the street and in their homes, when you dig tunnels to pop up in the Kibbutz dining room, when you blow incendiary balloons that destroy forests and nature reserves killing countless wild life you are not human, you are an evil daemon that should be eradicated just as was done with nazi Germany and ISIS.

Udik 5y ago
> when you say you want the utter annihilation and destruction of a racial group We already established that they don't say that. > when you praise and actively work to bomb busses, stab people in the street and in their homes... If your country had been invaded and utterly militarily overwhelmed by another country, now intent on building cities and installing their population on your former land, what would you do to free it, where would you stop and just throw your arms up and say "well, I can't do anything"? In a situation like that, there will always be someone who is willing to use any means to make the occupation and the oppression as costly as possible for the oppressor. It's not racial hatred, it's that when you cannot hit the army you'll hit whatever you can. When Israel will have given back all the territory that has illegally appropriated (illegally according to the western nations, not some backwards middle Eastern dictatorship) then it will be in a position to denounce any continuing terrorism from Hamas. Before that, it's just complaining because its victims fight back.
- TheGuyWhoCodes 5y ago
  > We already established that they don't say that. We haven't, you didn't. > when you cannot hit the army They do but it's just easier to just cut a fence and stab children sleeping, that's not legitimate struggle that's barbarism and terrorisms. > willing to use any means That's exactly the point, when the end justify the means. What they do, how they operate that's evil. It has nothing to do with justice. > your country had been invaded The PLO was founded in 64 way before any occupation of the west bank and gaza so your point of fighting your oppressor is moot unless you consider the occupation the entire state of Israel then your legal argument is void. They didn't struggle against their Egyptian and Jordanian "occupation" but when it's Jews, oy vey.
  - sofixa 5y ago
    > The PLO was founded in 64 way before any occupation of the west bank and gaza so your point of fighting your oppressor is moot unless you consider the occupation the entire state of Israel then your legal argument is void And ~50 years after Palestinians were promised self-rule, Jews were promised the right to move to Palestine, and Palestinians said they're against the mass migration of Jews there that displaced them. Why is it that you think Palestinians only have the right to Gaza and the West Bank when they were the majority across the whole of Palestine less than a hundred years ago ( what, two generations?) ? The PLO didn't see it that way in 64, only a few decades after Palestinians had their land stolen ans themselves evicted from it by new settlers.
    - TheGuyWhoCodes 5y ago
      > Palestinians said they're against the mass migration of Jews Ofc they would. So what? They weren't the rulers or had any form of government, most of the land didn't belong to them no matter how gerrymandering maps you want to draw. It was the British mandate before the ottoman before that..... > mass migration of Jews there that displaced them It didn't. The land Jews settled on was purchased since the 1880s. A lot of those Palestinians were immigrants themselves who came to Palestine for work, and the Jewish population were the ones that hired them. Most of Palestine before the Jews started to immigrate and built was deserts and swamps, no one wanted to live there until the Jewish population terraformed them to be livable. > Why is it that you think Palestinians only have the right to Gaza and the West Bank Because they lost the war they started, you can't start a war lose and then cry that you lost territory. They didn't want a Jewish state at all, or be under Jewish rule. That's how countries form, that's how borders are made. Every other country in the world was formed by conflict it's just that most of those countries annihilated the other side long ago so there is almost no one left to hear their voice or go on a twitter rampage.