3 ms·

Having looked at a lot of the issues surrounding Tesla, I would strongly disagree with that statement. I think it's mostly informed by hindsight. While it remai

Having looked at a lot of the issues surrounding Tesla, I would strongly disagree with that statement. I think it's mostly informed by hindsight. While it remains speculative it is certainly possible that Tesla is in the same league as Wirecard, and maybe Enron. People are easily thrown off by the fact that Tesla is successfully delivering a physical product and that the product is excellent in many aspects (driving UX, charger network, software integration, EV evangelism etc). However once you look closer, a whole host of parallels emerge: 'Very aggressive accounting' (non-GAAP, 20% accounts receivables, junior CFO, warranty repairs as goodwill etc), business is not profitable (revenues stem from tax credits not cars), bail out/enrichment of Musk family (SolarCity), securities fraud (funding secured), retaliation against whistleblowers, silencing/threatening critics and journalists, legal record, occupational health violations (injured workers not being treated, Covid), workers at the factories not being allowed to speak to visitors, selling something that doesn't exist (FSD), environmental concerns at Fremont, ... It's a different business than Wirecard for sure, and only time will tell, but the red flags are all there.

mschuster91 5y ago
> retaliation against whistleblowers, silencing/threatening critics and journalists, legal record, occupational health violations (injured workers not being treated, Covid), workers at the factories not being allowed to speak to visitors, [...] environmental concerns at Fremont Unfortunately, these issues - while perfectly legitimate to name them! - are extremely common throughout the entire US corporate and government culture. Exploitation of all kinds is pervasive.
buran77 5y ago
> I think it's mostly informed by hindsight Well... yes, simply because hindsight usually provides evidence while foresight provides guidance. So while I agree with your points, and as much as I dislike Musk (a criminal who's crimes are overlooked because of his status), your case pivots on the assumption that they're certainly faking it, just weren't caught yet. And you could be right. But so could Scientology. The fact that Tesla is delivering what we can easily verify with our eyes at the very least puts them in a vastly different league from Wirecard. Tesla could be a unprofitable business like so many others. But Wirecard wasn't just a failing business, it was massive scale fraud and nothing it left behind still proves useful and can provide value now.
- Pyramus 5y ago
  That is simply not true. The majority of Wirecard has been sold in the insolvency proceedings, e.g. the payments platform is still in use today! (Interestingly still using the domain wirecard.de!) The liquidation price was nowhere near its market value and their technology was nowhere near as innovative - both points that are also true for Tesla. Again, don't be led astray by the fact that Tesla is making physical products that you can see. On a different note I don't think of corporate fraud as something that brings you from 0 to 1 - it's more akin to cheating in sports. It will give you a competitive edge, an unfair advantage. If you are interested there is an interview with the CFO of Enron about legal fraud on Youtube - highly fascinating.

mschuster91 5y ago

> retaliation against whistleblowers, silencing/threatening critics and journalists, legal record, occupational health violations (injured workers not being treated, Covid), workers at the factories not being allowed to speak to visitors, [...] environmental concerns at Fremont Unfortunately, these issues - while perfectly legitimate to name them! - are extremely common throughout the entire US corporate and government culture. Exploitation of all kinds is pervasive.

buran77 5y ago

> I think it's mostly informed by hindsight Well... yes, simply because hindsight usually provides evidence while foresight provides guidance. So while I agree with your points, and as much as I dislike Musk (a criminal who's crimes are overlooked because of his status), your case pivots on the assumption that they're certainly faking it, just weren't caught yet. And you could be right. But so could Scientology. The fact that Tesla is delivering what we can easily verify with our eyes at the very least puts them in a vastly different league from Wirecard. Tesla could be a unprofitable business like so many others. But Wirecard wasn't just a failing business, it was massive scale fraud and nothing it left behind still proves useful and can provide value now.

Pyramus 5y ago
That is simply not true. The majority of Wirecard has been sold in the insolvency proceedings, e.g. the payments platform is still in use today! (Interestingly still using the domain wirecard.de!) The liquidation price was nowhere near its market value and their technology was nowhere near as innovative - both points that are also true for Tesla. Again, don't be led astray by the fact that Tesla is making physical products that you can see. On a different note I don't think of corporate fraud as something that brings you from 0 to 1 - it's more akin to cheating in sports. It will give you a competitive edge, an unfair advantage. If you are interested there is an interview with the CFO of Enron about legal fraud on Youtube - highly fascinating.