4 ms·

How is a DEI policy "left" or "right"?

greenail 5y ago
I think one way to measure how far left or right by looking at how far they take "Equity". If equity is an anti-racist version of "racial equity" then it demands "anti-racist" discrimination. To quote Kendi "The only remedy to racist discrimination is anti-racist discrimination. The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination."
Clewza313 5y ago
The more extreme ideologies of DEI like critical race theory are closely associated with (in American terms) "the liberal left".
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > The more extreme ideologies of DEI like critical race theory are closely associated with (in American terms) "the liberal left". “Critical race theory” isn’t either extreme or an ideology, its a fairly mainstream historiographic approach (it was a novel, but not particularly extreme, idea in its field nearly half a century ago, but now its not even that) that the American Right has recently adopted public opposition to (especially, oddly enough, in places it isn’t being promoted) as a tribal identity symbol (alongside election conspiracy theories and defiance of COVID precautions.) EDIT: It’s particularly odd to call “critical race theory” as an “extreme ideology of DEI” since DEI existing at all as a thing is based on a mainstream understanding of reality developed through critical race theory.
  - astrange 5y ago
    They've adopted public opposition to the words "critical race theory" and have essentially just made up a definition of what that is, or rather not defined it at all[1]. The level of discourse they're at doesn't admit discussing actual grad school critical theories, it's just a chance to bring back older school curriculums like that we didn't do anything bad to the Indians, the Civil War wasn't about slavery, MLK had a point but we've done all he asked for, etc. [1] https://www.rawstory.com/pete-ricketts/ https://www.rawstory.com/pete-ricketts/
  - greenail 5y ago
    "DEI existing at all as a thing is based on a mainstream understanding of reality developed through critical race theory." This strikes me as a very postmodern and intersectionalist view. My reply pointing out the ideological progression as: marxism -> neo marxism -> postmodernism -> critical theory -> critical race theory -> anti-racism was downvoted. Your post seems to validate it though.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > This strikes me as a very postmodern and intersectionalist view. There's nothing “postmodern or intersectionalist” about noting the historical factual sequence: critical race theory (1970s+) -> detailed analysis of post-civil-rights structural/institutional barriers to racial progress -> modern DEI
      - greenail 5y ago
        The idea that you can understand reality through CRT was what struck me postmodern/intersectionalist not the historical sequence. "lived experience" as truth and all that.
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        CRT, like critical theory more generally, has both modernist and postmodernist branches (contrary to the Right’s typical propaganda, which tends, confusingly, to associate it vert tightly with postmodernism despite also associating it very tightly with Marxism, which is extremely modernist.) I suppose your comment would make some distant sense if only the postmodernist branch of CRT existed.
djrogers 5y ago
It doesn’t have to be, but it has been made “left” in many companies. Start with seminars and zoom calls with progressive politicians as guests, donate company $$ to organizations that support civil rights while espousing Marxist beliefs, enable volunteer time to support certain types of politicians, etc. And that’s all aside from the instances of forcing CRT training on the workforce - plenty of controversy there as well. This stuff happens more than you’d think.
- greenail 5y ago
  I have seen all your examples in a top tech firm. In that same firm any public questioning was quickly shouted down in a way that made it clear that your were putting your career at risk by asking why the company was promoting left leaning politics through DEI.
- astrange 5y ago
  "Critical race theory" and "Marxism" are literally two different theories that oppose each other.
  - greenail 5y ago
    I believe the ideology went something like this marxism -> neo marxism -> postmodernism -> critical theory -> critical race theory -> anti-racism You can see the connections by swapping out class for oppressions/oppressed power dynamics plus intersectionality
    - astrange 5y ago
      The connections between most of these are just that different French people wrote about some of them at the same time. e.g. Marxism and postmodernism are also opposed to each other. Corporate trainings of course also don't contain hardcore theories, because the point is to be inoffensive and prevent lawsuits. Ibram Kendi or Robin DiAngelo might show up and do a talk (these people also don't exactly agree) but the actual result is that people are going to start saying "allowlist" instead of "whitelist". What CRT actually says is that since many US laws were written under racism, those laws still do racist things, and it's obviously true: https://twitter.com/AdamHSays/status/1394986418993340425 https://twitter.com/AdamHSays/status/1394986418993340425
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

I think one way to measure how far left or right by looking at how far they take "Equity". If equity is an anti-racist version of "racial equity" then it demands "anti-racist" discrimination. To quote Kendi "The only remedy to racist discrimination is anti-racist discrimination. The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination."

Clewza313 5y ago

The more extreme ideologies of DEI like critical race theory are closely associated with (in American terms) "the liberal left".

dragonwriter 5y ago
> The more extreme ideologies of DEI like critical race theory are closely associated with (in American terms) "the liberal left". “Critical race theory” isn’t either extreme or an ideology, its a fairly mainstream historiographic approach (it was a novel, but not particularly extreme, idea in its field nearly half a century ago, but now its not even that) that the American Right has recently adopted public opposition to (especially, oddly enough, in places it isn’t being promoted) as a tribal identity symbol (alongside election conspiracy theories and defiance of COVID precautions.) EDIT: It’s particularly odd to call “critical race theory” as an “extreme ideology of DEI” since DEI existing at all as a thing is based on a mainstream understanding of reality developed through critical race theory.
- astrange 5y ago
  They've adopted public opposition to the words "critical race theory" and have essentially just made up a definition of what that is, or rather not defined it at all[1]. The level of discourse they're at doesn't admit discussing actual grad school critical theories, it's just a chance to bring back older school curriculums like that we didn't do anything bad to the Indians, the Civil War wasn't about slavery, MLK had a point but we've done all he asked for, etc. [1] https://www.rawstory.com/pete-ricketts/ https://www.rawstory.com/pete-ricketts/
- greenail 5y ago
  "DEI existing at all as a thing is based on a mainstream understanding of reality developed through critical race theory." This strikes me as a very postmodern and intersectionalist view. My reply pointing out the ideological progression as: marxism -> neo marxism -> postmodernism -> critical theory -> critical race theory -> anti-racism was downvoted. Your post seems to validate it though.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > This strikes me as a very postmodern and intersectionalist view. There's nothing “postmodern or intersectionalist” about noting the historical factual sequence: critical race theory (1970s+) -> detailed analysis of post-civil-rights structural/institutional barriers to racial progress -> modern DEI
    - greenail 5y ago
      The idea that you can understand reality through CRT was what struck me postmodern/intersectionalist not the historical sequence. "lived experience" as truth and all that.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        CRT, like critical theory more generally, has both modernist and postmodernist branches (contrary to the Right’s typical propaganda, which tends, confusingly, to associate it vert tightly with postmodernism despite also associating it very tightly with Marxism, which is extremely modernist.) I suppose your comment would make some distant sense if only the postmodernist branch of CRT existed.

djrogers 5y ago

It doesn’t have to be, but it has been made “left” in many companies. Start with seminars and zoom calls with progressive politicians as guests, donate company $$ to organizations that support civil rights while espousing Marxist beliefs, enable volunteer time to support certain types of politicians, etc. And that’s all aside from the instances of forcing CRT training on the workforce - plenty of controversy there as well. This stuff happens more than you’d think.

greenail 5y ago
I have seen all your examples in a top tech firm. In that same firm any public questioning was quickly shouted down in a way that made it clear that your were putting your career at risk by asking why the company was promoting left leaning politics through DEI.
astrange 5y ago
"Critical race theory" and "Marxism" are literally two different theories that oppose each other.
- greenail 5y ago
  I believe the ideology went something like this marxism -> neo marxism -> postmodernism -> critical theory -> critical race theory -> anti-racism You can see the connections by swapping out class for oppressions/oppressed power dynamics plus intersectionality
  - astrange 5y ago
    The connections between most of these are just that different French people wrote about some of them at the same time. e.g. Marxism and postmodernism are also opposed to each other. Corporate trainings of course also don't contain hardcore theories, because the point is to be inoffensive and prevent lawsuits. Ibram Kendi or Robin DiAngelo might show up and do a talk (these people also don't exactly agree) but the actual result is that people are going to start saying "allowlist" instead of "whitelist". What CRT actually says is that since many US laws were written under racism, those laws still do racist things, and it's obviously true: https://twitter.com/AdamHSays/status/1394986418993340425 https://twitter.com/AdamHSays/status/1394986418993340425

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]