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I think your anger is misplaced - you should be angry at government who requires Brave (and eBay, and Etsy, and any company that is paying out money to people)

I think your anger is misplaced - you should be angry at government who requires Brave (and eBay, and Etsy, and any company that is paying out money to people) to require this. If this wasn’t legally required they (and every other company) wouldn’t do it.

gjsman-1000 5y ago
That, at least, does have a reason. Uphold is an online exchange and crypto wallet more popular in Europe but very similar to Coinbase. The government doesn't want money laundering and other financial crimes, and you might disagree with KYC but at least there's some argument there. I don't like that Brave doesn't say, on their Brave Rewards page, warning: You will need to give up your privacy to cash out. If that's OK with you, great; if not, don't set your browser to show ads for months before you try cashing out or you'll get a nasty surprise. From Brave's perspective, there's also a conflict of interest here. Remember, when an advertiser spends BAT to show an ad, 30% goes to Brave and 70% to the ad receiver. Brave has every incentive to get that 30%, don't they? If that means you were fooled into leaving your browser showing ads thinking you could cash out without losing your privacy, they benefit. And that's why it really smells fishy that they don't mention it on their product page.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- vorticalbox 5y ago
  I guess some users don't ever cash out and just use the rewards to fund the content they consume.
kerng 5y ago
Not sure why you are downvoted. I guess users could also send the tokens elsewhere to try and find an exchange that doesnt care about money laundering laws - but governments get quite involved in crypto. Or is transfering tokens not possible?
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  Not with Brave, it is not. All of your tokens go into Uphold, and you must go through full KYC (providing your Driver's License and SSN), before you can move them to any other wallet. And no, the tokens your browser says you have, they aren't actually yours or transferrable until your KYC Verification is complete. The amount of tokens in your account before you complete Uphold verification is more of an IOU BAT until you create an account and get the actual BAT. This is what is also egregious. Yes, BAT is decentralized when you move it around in wallets, but as far as the browser is concerned, all BAT you earn from receiving ads is actually quite centralized.
  - kerng 5y ago
    Thanks for clarifying - that indeed should have a big red warning sign for anyone signing up trying to collect BAT via Brave.
capableweb 5y ago
Brave, Inc has no requirement to be located in the US that does require these laws, hardly the fault of the government they are choosing to be incorporated under that Brave chooses that particular geographical position, especially since the US probably has some of the worst examples in recent history for disregarding the privacy of citizens and non-citizens alike.
- mannerheim 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure the US government is notorious for enforcing its financial laws well beyond its borders.
gruez 5y ago
Is there a reason why brave has to do it but services like bing rewards doesn't? Also, AFAIK paypal allows you to do small transfers without verifying anything.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
Sites like eBay would require user identity verification whether or not the government required it. Can you imagine the scale of fraud on eBay if users were allowed to set up anonymous accounts and accept irreversible currency transactions to anonymous sellers? It would be a scammer’s dream come true. I wouldn’t have any interest in using such marketplaces. As for Brave: Whether or not KYC or other regulations explain their behavior, any cryptocurrency rewards program has an inherent incentive to make it as difficult as possible to cash out. People who cash out almost always sell their coins, putting downward pressure on the price. If they can use dark patterns to reduce the number of people selling coins, the coin price stays higher. The ideal cryptocurrency rewards program (for the crypto, not the users) would give people coins but almost force them to hold those coins and make it as difficult as possible to sell. This simultaneously hypes the coin by spreading awareness and removes downward price pressure by making it difficult to sell. This almost always means the company or founders have a lot of the coin that they plan to sell off as it becomes popular. Virtually everything that comes attached with arbitrary crypto tokens or rewards is a scam to make the founders wealthy while the users chase pennies.
- schelling42 5y ago
  Using this dark pattern is probably necessary, as it is the only robust way to protect them from being click-frauded. You can earn only small rewards by watching ads in a single browser, so there is a big incentive to run as many automated brave instances as possible. Then send it all to one wallet and cash out. But one would need to complete KYC for each instance. You can't move the tokens without it, so it can't be scaled up.
qeternity 5y ago
Let's presume this were true - that the Government was also at fault (I don't agree) - why does that excuse Brave's behavior? If I go look at any other service which requires that kind of information, it's always right up front. Want a Robinhood account? Great, you have to provide the info when you open an acocunt.
- prepend 5y ago
  I use brave and rewards but have never cashed out so didn’t provide any KYC info. I just donate BAT to sites. Brave does “request info up front” for users who want to use the wallet. Requesting it from users who won’t need it is a waste of time. All Robinhood users perform financial transactions, very few Brave users do.
  - freediver 5y ago
    Is the lack of other options to send micropayments to sites the reason you do this? If there was a way to one click send micropayments to sites from a browser that did not require you to watch ads, but you send your own money, would you do it?
    - prepend 5y ago
      Honestly it’s because I’ve never had enough tokens to qualify for the minimum. So I just leave stuff in my wallet and transfer every once in a while. I would prefer a wallet that I have control over, but I kind of ignore the BAT stuff and just use it because it’s a clean browser that’s easier for me than managing adblocker plug-ins. The tokens are just a bonus.

gjsman-1000 5y ago

That, at least, does have a reason. Uphold is an online exchange and crypto wallet more popular in Europe but very similar to Coinbase. The government doesn't want money laundering and other financial crimes, and you might disagree with KYC but at least there's some argument there. I don't like that Brave doesn't say, on their Brave Rewards page, warning: You will need to give up your privacy to cash out. If that's OK with you, great; if not, don't set your browser to show ads for months before you try cashing out or you'll get a nasty surprise. From Brave's perspective, there's also a conflict of interest here. Remember, when an advertiser spends BAT to show an ad, 30% goes to Brave and 70% to the ad receiver. Brave has every incentive to get that 30%, don't they? If that means you were fooled into leaving your browser showing ads thinking you could cash out without losing your privacy, they benefit. And that's why it really smells fishy that they don't mention it on their product page.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
vorticalbox 5y ago
I guess some users don't ever cash out and just use the rewards to fund the content they consume.

kerng 5y ago

Not sure why you are downvoted. I guess users could also send the tokens elsewhere to try and find an exchange that doesnt care about money laundering laws - but governments get quite involved in crypto. Or is transfering tokens not possible?

gjsman-1000 5y ago
Not with Brave, it is not. All of your tokens go into Uphold, and you must go through full KYC (providing your Driver's License and SSN), before you can move them to any other wallet. And no, the tokens your browser says you have, they aren't actually yours or transferrable until your KYC Verification is complete. The amount of tokens in your account before you complete Uphold verification is more of an IOU BAT until you create an account and get the actual BAT. This is what is also egregious. Yes, BAT is decentralized when you move it around in wallets, but as far as the browser is concerned, all BAT you earn from receiving ads is actually quite centralized.
- kerng 5y ago
  Thanks for clarifying - that indeed should have a big red warning sign for anyone signing up trying to collect BAT via Brave.

capableweb 5y ago

Brave, Inc has no requirement to be located in the US that does require these laws, hardly the fault of the government they are choosing to be incorporated under that Brave chooses that particular geographical position, especially since the US probably has some of the worst examples in recent history for disregarding the privacy of citizens and non-citizens alike.

mannerheim 5y ago
I'm pretty sure the US government is notorious for enforcing its financial laws well beyond its borders.

gruez 5y ago

Is there a reason why brave has to do it but services like bing rewards doesn't? Also, AFAIK paypal allows you to do small transfers without verifying anything.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

Sites like eBay would require user identity verification whether or not the government required it. Can you imagine the scale of fraud on eBay if users were allowed to set up anonymous accounts and accept irreversible currency transactions to anonymous sellers? It would be a scammer’s dream come true. I wouldn’t have any interest in using such marketplaces. As for Brave: Whether or not KYC or other regulations explain their behavior, any cryptocurrency rewards program has an inherent incentive to make it as difficult as possible to cash out. People who cash out almost always sell their coins, putting downward pressure on the price. If they can use dark patterns to reduce the number of people selling coins, the coin price stays higher. The ideal cryptocurrency rewards program (for the crypto, not the users) would give people coins but almost force them to hold those coins and make it as difficult as possible to sell. This simultaneously hypes the coin by spreading awareness and removes downward price pressure by making it difficult to sell. This almost always means the company or founders have a lot of the coin that they plan to sell off as it becomes popular. Virtually everything that comes attached with arbitrary crypto tokens or rewards is a scam to make the founders wealthy while the users chase pennies.

schelling42 5y ago
Using this dark pattern is probably necessary, as it is the only robust way to protect them from being click-frauded. You can earn only small rewards by watching ads in a single browser, so there is a big incentive to run as many automated brave instances as possible. Then send it all to one wallet and cash out. But one would need to complete KYC for each instance. You can't move the tokens without it, so it can't be scaled up.

qeternity 5y ago

Let's presume this were true - that the Government was also at fault (I don't agree) - why does that excuse Brave's behavior? If I go look at any other service which requires that kind of information, it's always right up front. Want a Robinhood account? Great, you have to provide the info when you open an acocunt.

prepend 5y ago
I use brave and rewards but have never cashed out so didn’t provide any KYC info. I just donate BAT to sites. Brave does “request info up front” for users who want to use the wallet. Requesting it from users who won’t need it is a waste of time. All Robinhood users perform financial transactions, very few Brave users do.
- freediver 5y ago
  Is the lack of other options to send micropayments to sites the reason you do this? If there was a way to one click send micropayments to sites from a browser that did not require you to watch ads, but you send your own money, would you do it?
  - prepend 5y ago
    Honestly it’s because I’ve never had enough tokens to qualify for the minimum. So I just leave stuff in my wallet and transfer every once in a while. I would prefer a wallet that I have control over, but I kind of ignore the BAT stuff and just use it because it’s a clean browser that’s easier for me than managing adblocker plug-ins. The tokens are just a bonus.