6 ms·

With this, and the dual-SID add-on boards for real Commodore 64s there are not enough original SID chips to go around. Already hawkers on eBay rip them out of w

With this, and the dual-SID add-on boards for real Commodore 64s there are not enough original SID chips to go around. Already hawkers on eBay rip them out of working C64s and sell them separately at jacked-up prices, to people who have managed to buy C64 motherboards at a lower price because they are missing their SID chips, probably in fact the very same SID chip they are now paying over the odds for separately. There are a few pseudo-SID hardware projects[1,2,3] that can produce 'good enough' SID-like sounds, maybe the more honourable thing is to rework this project into something that uses those ? --- [1] https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/SwinSID https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/SwinSID [2] https://github.com/Sgw32/UltiSID/tree/hal_usid https://github.com/Sgw32/UltiSID/tree/hal_usid [3] https://www.retrocomp.cz/produkt?id=2 https://www.retrocomp.cz/produkt?id=2

krylon 5y ago
I used to know a guy who collected C64s in 2009, and he was complaining back then that buying them on eBay was an exercise in trial-and-error, for the exact same reason that the SID chip was missing so often. :(
- cmrdporcupine 5y ago
  You could probably blame the SIDstation (and its successors) for that. People have been putting SIDs into various synths (including DIY like the MIDIbox SID and others) since the late 90s.
  - boomlinde 5y ago
    There's also the fact that these chips are prone to failure, partly because they presumably are sensitive to static electricity and partly due to the design of theC64 which offers little protection.
    - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
      The worst part is I actually have a few SIDs around I intended to use for projects, but because of my chronic disorganization... I couldn't find a couple of them last time I looked. Lying in a pile of parts. I'm sure there are people who would hang me for this :-)
ben_w 5y ago
Thanks for those links; I was about to ask if we could just make new SID chips, but the RetroComp link in particular appears to be the answer “yes”.
- unwind 5y ago
  The ARMSID is a software emulator, running on an ARM microcontroller. While it's plug-and-play with the real thing, I would not equate it with a "new SID chip". For some it's probably fine, for others it's just not the same.
  - foft 5y ago
    There are FPGA recreations too which are not software emulation. Not quite an ASIC but realistically as close it at gets at this volume. [1]https://www.fpgasid.de/ https://www.fpgasid.de/ [2]https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fretronics.eu%2Fposts%2F2921073591505093 https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2... I'm working on the latter one, Sidmax, so if there are any questions happy to answer.
    - tssva 5y ago
      Since a lot of the distinctive sound of a SID comes from the analog components which still need to be emulated in a FPGA solution does an FPGA solution really get closer to the sound of an actual SID than a quality software emulation?
      - foft 5y ago
        FPGA does not really offer advantages of accuracy, though it does offer advantages in time precision. This is important when putting it inside a C64. Of course a much faster CPU can also be used to handle real cycle accuracy in sync with the original clock. Part of the sid sound comes from the non-linearity due to approximation in its design. For example the state variable filters are very non-linear on the 6581. It even differs significantly from each individual chip to chip[1]. The best software models I'm aware of are in residfp[2] and jsidplay[3]. After some work in octave I found the filter model can be recreated without the large lookup tables used in this software. Of course getting the digital part correct is also important. There is a lot of documentation on this resulting from the decap [4]. Some features like bitfade, multiple driven bits in the wave corruption etc do not translate well to FPGA. They can be approximated with timers and lookup tables. [1] Filter response chart: https://csdb.dk/forums/?roomid=14&topicid=105719 https://csdb.dk/forums/?roomid=14&topicid=105719 [2] residfp: https://bel.fi/alankila/c64-sw/index-cpp.html https://bel.fi/alankila/c64-sw/index-cpp.html [3] jsidplay2: https://haendel.ddns.net/~ken/ https://haendel.ddns.net/~ken/ [4] Sid internals: https://sourceforge.net/p/sidplay-residfp/wiki/SID%20internals/ https://sourceforge.net/p/sidplay-residfp/wiki/SID%20interna...
jchw 5y ago
Although I haven’t gotten any obviously resurfaced SID chips (something that, for one reason or another, does happen often) the majority of SID chips I’ve gotten off of eBay (sample size <10 for what it’s worth) have been junk; either not working at all, or only partly working. Still managed to get myself a working dual SID configuration with one 6581 and one 8580. But even That is obviously not ideal, since you can’t do cool stereo SID with that, at least if you want to it sound good. I thought maybe it would be OK, but a lot of tracks really need one or the other, the filters are usually pretty mucked up on one or the other. But you know, beggars can’t be choosers. Maybe I could do a stereo setup with one SwinSID. Even though I didn’t grow up with a C64 though, man, nothing really beats the real thing when it comes to SID. It’s a shame it’s so damn challenging to emulate.
- ddingus 5y ago
  Some people in the Parallax Propeller community have been hard at work on a high quality emulation. First gen is SIDCOG, and a second one, running at some 400khz is in development.
coldacid 5y ago
You're forgetting about FPGASID[1], which provides dual SID capability and high quality simulation of the original SID's analogue parts, not to mention can be toggled between the two different SID chip versions. It also supports paddles, like the real SID chips, but unlike SwinSID. [1] https://www.fpgasid.de/ https://www.fpgasid.de/

krylon 5y ago

I used to know a guy who collected C64s in 2009, and he was complaining back then that buying them on eBay was an exercise in trial-and-error, for the exact same reason that the SID chip was missing so often. :(

cmrdporcupine 5y ago
You could probably blame the SIDstation (and its successors) for that. People have been putting SIDs into various synths (including DIY like the MIDIbox SID and others) since the late 90s.
- boomlinde 5y ago
  There's also the fact that these chips are prone to failure, partly because they presumably are sensitive to static electricity and partly due to the design of theC64 which offers little protection.
  - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
    The worst part is I actually have a few SIDs around I intended to use for projects, but because of my chronic disorganization... I couldn't find a couple of them last time I looked. Lying in a pile of parts. I'm sure there are people who would hang me for this :-)

ben_w 5y ago

Thanks for those links; I was about to ask if we could just make new SID chips, but the RetroComp link in particular appears to be the answer “yes”.

unwind 5y ago
The ARMSID is a software emulator, running on an ARM microcontroller. While it's plug-and-play with the real thing, I would not equate it with a "new SID chip". For some it's probably fine, for others it's just not the same.
- foft 5y ago
  There are FPGA recreations too which are not software emulation. Not quite an ASIC but realistically as close it at gets at this volume. [1]https://www.fpgasid.de/ https://www.fpgasid.de/ [2]https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fretronics.eu%2Fposts%2F2921073591505093 https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2... I'm working on the latter one, Sidmax, so if there are any questions happy to answer.
  - tssva 5y ago
    Since a lot of the distinctive sound of a SID comes from the analog components which still need to be emulated in a FPGA solution does an FPGA solution really get closer to the sound of an actual SID than a quality software emulation?
    - foft 5y ago
      FPGA does not really offer advantages of accuracy, though it does offer advantages in time precision. This is important when putting it inside a C64. Of course a much faster CPU can also be used to handle real cycle accuracy in sync with the original clock. Part of the sid sound comes from the non-linearity due to approximation in its design. For example the state variable filters are very non-linear on the 6581. It even differs significantly from each individual chip to chip[1]. The best software models I'm aware of are in residfp[2] and jsidplay[3]. After some work in octave I found the filter model can be recreated without the large lookup tables used in this software. Of course getting the digital part correct is also important. There is a lot of documentation on this resulting from the decap [4]. Some features like bitfade, multiple driven bits in the wave corruption etc do not translate well to FPGA. They can be approximated with timers and lookup tables. [1] Filter response chart: https://csdb.dk/forums/?roomid=14&topicid=105719 https://csdb.dk/forums/?roomid=14&topicid=105719 [2] residfp: https://bel.fi/alankila/c64-sw/index-cpp.html https://bel.fi/alankila/c64-sw/index-cpp.html [3] jsidplay2: https://haendel.ddns.net/~ken/ https://haendel.ddns.net/~ken/ [4] Sid internals: https://sourceforge.net/p/sidplay-residfp/wiki/SID%20internals/ https://sourceforge.net/p/sidplay-residfp/wiki/SID%20interna...

jchw 5y ago

Although I haven’t gotten any obviously resurfaced SID chips (something that, for one reason or another, does happen often) the majority of SID chips I’ve gotten off of eBay (sample size <10 for what it’s worth) have been junk; either not working at all, or only partly working. Still managed to get myself a working dual SID configuration with one 6581 and one 8580. But even That is obviously not ideal, since you can’t do cool stereo SID with that, at least if you want to it sound good. I thought maybe it would be OK, but a lot of tracks really need one or the other, the filters are usually pretty mucked up on one or the other. But you know, beggars can’t be choosers. Maybe I could do a stereo setup with one SwinSID. Even though I didn’t grow up with a C64 though, man, nothing really beats the real thing when it comes to SID. It’s a shame it’s so damn challenging to emulate.

ddingus 5y ago
Some people in the Parallax Propeller community have been hard at work on a high quality emulation. First gen is SIDCOG, and a second one, running at some 400khz is in development.

coldacid 5y ago

You're forgetting about FPGASID[1], which provides dual SID capability and high quality simulation of the original SID's analogue parts, not to mention can be toggled between the two different SID chip versions. It also supports paddles, like the real SID chips, but unlike SwinSID. [1] https://www.fpgasid.de/ https://www.fpgasid.de/