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It's not surprising. Tesla marketing is basically a scam. The tech is great, but Tesla always overpromise, underdeliver, and lie. The worst part is that few pe

It's not surprising. Tesla marketing is basically a scam. The tech is great, but Tesla always overpromise, underdeliver, and lie. The worst part is that few people seems to care or understand that it's BS. Take the latest launch as an example. The car is stated to do 0-60 in 1.99 seconds. Does it do that? No, not even close. It's also supposed to know if you want to go forward or back, and people are surprised when it doesn't do that. And then comes the most dangerous part: Autopilot and full self driving. Tesla cars has over multiple years promised that you can rent out your car as a robotaxi soon if you get the self driving package. Has that happened? No. Will it any time soon? No. Not only is people surprised when self driving doesn't work, but it also has fatal consequences. Heck, even I who have no experience or insights into Tesla can much more accurately than Elon tell people what Tesla will and won't be able to do. And I do of course think Elon knows more, but he chooses to trick people to buy Tesla. This needs to stop...

JackPoach 5y ago
This is what's so strange about US. There are laws with very hefty fines about false advertising, especially when human life and health is involved, this is true for EU and most other locations. Try to remember how much VW paid for their diesel emission scam. It was almost 3 billion dollars. And Tesla...
- buran77 5y ago
  Also remember that GM paid a fraction of that for the ignition switch scandal [0] where GM management intentionally hid the issue which directly lead to at least 120 deaths, and that was just the official count. The US has little interest in hitting home companies in any way. Preventing the false advertising would impact the value of Tesla because the FSD claims were an integral part of Tesla's branding and success. Some countries in Europa, like Germany, blocked Tesla from using misleading claims in their advertising like suggesting anything about self driving [1]. Of course this is usually dismissed as Germany protecting its auto industry. But the reality is that the claims Tesla made consistently misleading and made to suggest the cars is able to self-drive and it's only regulations that prevent it from doing this. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch_recalls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/business/tesla-autopilot-germany.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/business/tesla-autopilot-...
  - JackPoach 5y ago
    I feel that there's almost 'Protect Tesla at any cost' order, even though there clearly isn't one. I have this heavy feeling that should Tesla crash and burn, this is going to be a major hit not only for Nasdaq or S&P, it can lead to major disillusionment with what tech sector really is and what it can and can not do for humanity in general and for US as a country specifically.
    - buran77 5y ago
      It's a very valuable company that's just taken off and for the first time in a long time gives the US an edge in the global auto industry. Shooting it in the wing now, even if it's the legal duty, gives everyone else an advantage. So blind eye it is. Tesla has no reason to crash and burn but without a real or perceived edge over the competition it wouldn't thrive. And the self driving claim is a hefty part of that edge.
      - JackPoach 5y ago
        Yeah, but this is a very US-centric view. China is (arguably) far ahead of US both in EV technology in general and Tesla specifically. It's hard to separate personality cult of Elon Musk from Tesla, but for many outside US, there's absolutely nothing special about Tesla except for the valuation part.
        buran77 5y ago
        I am completely oblivious as to how Tesla is seen in China. But plenty of the hype Tesla generated in Europe some years ago had FSD as a backbone (maybe a bit of ludicrous mode too), it was an easy way to cover generic EV drawbacks. I'm not saying that this is why people bought Teslas, rather that that's the reason people spoke about Teslas. If everywhere you look you see a discussion about how awesome one feature of a product is you're slowly and unconsciously going to start assuming the whole package must be awesome. Tesla not only got "infinite" marketing and PR points by claiming "FSD", they even got money from people who are still waiting for that functionality. Those who expected driver assists are happy. Those who expected the claimed FSD are certainly not. Today with competing companies like Volvo announcing L4 cars in 2022, the generic FSD claims are nowhere nearly as valuable as a few years ago.
remontoire 5y ago
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-s/2021/2022-tesla-model-s-plaid-first-test-review/ https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-s/2021/2022-tesl...
- yawaworht1978 5y ago
  https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big-reads/it-mad-bad-840bhp-dodge-demon https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big-reads/it-mad-bad-840bhp...
- vardump 5y ago
  So Model S Plaid can do 0-60 in 1.98s provided sticky VHT substance on the track. Same stuff used for other drag racers, super- and hypercars to get the required road friction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PJ1_TrackBite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PJ1_TrackBite Without VHT: "Once ready and in its cheetah stance, the Model S Plaid's launch is drama-free, even without the added advantage of VHT. The electric car accelerates from 0 to 60 mph in just 2.07 seconds, more than 0.2 second quicker than our previous record holder." Based on this, what NorwegianDude suggested that it doesn't come even near to that acceleration is just false.
  - NorwegianDude 5y ago
    Same article, first thing: "we can confirm the 2.0-second 0-60 barrier remains unbroken. Unless, that is, you write your own rules." "Plaid accelerates from 0-60 mph in 2.28 seconds" So which one is it? Defenitly not 0-60 mph in 1.98. 0.29 seconds off is a huge amount. It's exponentially harder the lower you go, so I'd say that it's not even close.
    - remontoire 5y ago
      Roll-out is standard my dude. So is testing at drag strips. Next you're going to point out that a tesla accelerating on the beach gets to 60mph in 11 seconds and therefore Elon is lying. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a30085446/acceleration-testing-procedure-change-rollout/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a30085446/acceleration... https://www.motortrend.com/news/motor-trend-testing/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/motor-trend-testing/
s5300 5y ago
Uhhh >The car is stated to do 0-60 in 1.99 seconds. Does it do that? No, not even close Can you explain this? If your only rebuttal is "muh 1 foot rollout" I'm pretty sure any reader is going to quickly throw you into the "for some reason, Elon Musk makes this person very butthurt" bin.
- yawaworht1978 5y ago
  Well, rollout makes a big difference for rwd vehicles. The target here was to present a sub 2 second time. Meanwhile, line it up from a dead stop vs an AWD and you will get this real world result. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/26/porsche-taycan-turbo-s-beats-tesla-model-s-p100d-in-0-100-km-h-0-250-km-h-acceleration-times/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/26/porsche-taycan-turbo-s-... Even few feet rollout makes 0.3 seconds difference. Another thing is the us system 0-60mph, add another 0.2 seconds for the european 0-100kmh. In conclusion, nope a Tesla will not do 0-60 mph from a standstill.
  - onethought 5y ago
    But, they don’t say that. So that’s the false advertising claim dead. And it’s .2 seconds, so is 2.2 seconds make all those Tesla buyers idiots? What’s the nearest competitor at?
    - LandR 5y ago
      Does anyone really care about 0-60 times. I've never done a full launch 0-60 in any car. I'm more interested in stuff like 50mph -> 80 mph.
      - llampx 5y ago
        Its a marketing claim and so its important.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
nabla9 5y ago
This is exactly what makes Tesla so weird. It's very unusual to see so much misleading marketing from someone who has technology lead. > And I do of course think Elon knows more, but he chooses to trick people to buy Tesla. Tesla has extremely weak board of directors. Innovator like Musk needs a board that provides constructive counterbalance. It seems that the board is just for the ride and they don't contribute anything. Tesla executives say in official documents that Tesla Autopilot is just level 2. The sales and marketing hints, suggests, and gives an impression of something much better. Tesla must have lawyers that understand that being smartass and just avoiding being explicit does not give legal protection if there is consumer class action. The court will look at all the evidence and try to figure out what was the intended message.
- kamray23 5y ago
  But what has Musk innovated in Tesla? All Musk has done personally is talk big and then walk back on that once the engineers who actually need to do the innovation can't reach his pipe dreams. In my opinion it's a company like any other, false advertising and all. Nothing out of the ordinary, it just presents itself as revolutionary. "Revolutionary" tech companies are super common now. Uber is literally just a taxi service which doesn't give employee benefits, Tesla is literally just "what if car battery", a fairly mature technology. Hyperloop is a train, Loop and Lyft are just "public transport but not next to the poors", it's all so stupid. None of these people are innovators in any way, they're just ordinary business owners who know that big promises pull in venture capital. Most of them eventually get acquired by one of the large Silicon Valley corporations and then become a new bit of the market. Rarely they go on for longer than a few years before the jig is up.
hughrr 5y ago
Oh yes. People are still drinking the self driving kool aid. My father paid for self driving option in UK on a model S. three years ago. For three years it’s “any day now” he tells me regularly. I’m not sure what he’s doing now but he was muttering something about having to pay for a hardware upgrade which will bring it closer. He’s either going to drop dead or we will develop cold fusion reactors first.
- mattashii 5y ago
  > or we will develop cold fusion reactors first. Both "fusor" and "muon-catalyzed fusion" are 'cold' fusion techniques, and although the energy returns are 'abysmal' and 'bad' respectively, they are both real-life fusion techniques that do not rely on the conventional high-temperature high-pressure reactors.
rvz 5y ago
Exactly. The fanatics are still in denial and continue to defend Tesla's FSD lies. Was supposed to be due last year and it is still admittedly 'Level 2'. They should at least called Tesla out for repeatedly misleading their customers (again), but won't because they are too busy worshipping Musk. If it was anyone else, they would be immediately destroyed (or sued to hell). > And I do of course think Elon knows more, but he chooses to trick people to buy Tesla. They are sure clever at this marketing scam and they know it. Now they moved on to manipulate the cryptocurrency market.
koonsolo 5y ago
I agree that they over-promise, etc. On the other hand, if it's a scam, Tesla owners should feel scammed. But as far as I can tell, Tesla owners are absolutely loving the car, even with the many small defects. Still seems that even though the car doesn't reach the marketing message, it still is one of the best on the market.
- xvector 5y ago
  As a Tesla owner I've grown pretty bitter with the car after 2 years. For $40k my auto wipers don't even work, Spotify playback is buggy, and I'm stuck with Tesla's shitty navigation instead of a sane alternative like Waze. I don't even have waypoints for planning trips, which are especially important for electric cars. In his hubris, Elon has outright rejected CarPlay - while doing absolutely nothing to improve the built in software. Tesla's stated range on the website is basically a complete lie. I can only safely budget ~160 miles, even though my SR+ was sold advertising ~240 miles. The interior quality is pretty terrible for the price and I have to pay Tesla to enable rear seat heating which my $40k car already has installed. I think Tesla will lose a not-insignificant amount of current owners when it's time to upgrade. A lot of us are sick of Tesla spending finances on adding worthless videogames when there are still serious shortcomings with the software. I am personally waiting for prices on the Audi e-tron GT to come down a bit, or for Porsche to release an electrified 718. The only issue is charging infrastructure, which Tesla absolutely dominates.
  - kamray23 5y ago
    I mean I've heard the infotainment system on Teslas is closer to a cheap Android tablet glued to a car than a computer, kinda like a lot of smart TVs are. True or no? I've heard it has some performance issues.
    - xvector 5y ago
      The infotainment is the most responsive car industry - zero lag or stuttering, basically like an iPad. Unfortunately it is held back by buggy software and missing features. This could be remedied by Tesla allowing CarPlay or Android Auto, but Elon has said that won't be happening.
johanneskanybal 5y ago
Oh how the mighty have fallen. Everything Elon these days makes me puke.
tqkxzugoaupvwqr 5y ago
I watched a video of a German Tesla driver trying the auto pilot in a German city. If he hadn’t intervened it would’ve crashed into stationary cars parked on the side of the road, and on the second occasion it went straight ahead into a roundabout without slowing down at all. It’s insane how this is just treated as “Well, it’s a preview”. People are having almost-crashes because they rely on it in false belief that it is ready (because it’s always “close to public release”).

JackPoach 5y ago

This is what's so strange about US. There are laws with very hefty fines about false advertising, especially when human life and health is involved, this is true for EU and most other locations. Try to remember how much VW paid for their diesel emission scam. It was almost 3 billion dollars. And Tesla...

buran77 5y ago
Also remember that GM paid a fraction of that for the ignition switch scandal [0] where GM management intentionally hid the issue which directly lead to at least 120 deaths, and that was just the official count. The US has little interest in hitting home companies in any way. Preventing the false advertising would impact the value of Tesla because the FSD claims were an integral part of Tesla's branding and success. Some countries in Europa, like Germany, blocked Tesla from using misleading claims in their advertising like suggesting anything about self driving [1]. Of course this is usually dismissed as Germany protecting its auto industry. But the reality is that the claims Tesla made consistently misleading and made to suggest the cars is able to self-drive and it's only regulations that prevent it from doing this. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch_recalls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/business/tesla-autopilot-germany.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/business/tesla-autopilot-...
- JackPoach 5y ago
  I feel that there's almost 'Protect Tesla at any cost' order, even though there clearly isn't one. I have this heavy feeling that should Tesla crash and burn, this is going to be a major hit not only for Nasdaq or S&P, it can lead to major disillusionment with what tech sector really is and what it can and can not do for humanity in general and for US as a country specifically.
  - buran77 5y ago
    It's a very valuable company that's just taken off and for the first time in a long time gives the US an edge in the global auto industry. Shooting it in the wing now, even if it's the legal duty, gives everyone else an advantage. So blind eye it is. Tesla has no reason to crash and burn but without a real or perceived edge over the competition it wouldn't thrive. And the self driving claim is a hefty part of that edge.
    - JackPoach 5y ago
      Yeah, but this is a very US-centric view. China is (arguably) far ahead of US both in EV technology in general and Tesla specifically. It's hard to separate personality cult of Elon Musk from Tesla, but for many outside US, there's absolutely nothing special about Tesla except for the valuation part.
      - buran77 5y ago
        I am completely oblivious as to how Tesla is seen in China. But plenty of the hype Tesla generated in Europe some years ago had FSD as a backbone (maybe a bit of ludicrous mode too), it was an easy way to cover generic EV drawbacks. I'm not saying that this is why people bought Teslas, rather that that's the reason people spoke about Teslas. If everywhere you look you see a discussion about how awesome one feature of a product is you're slowly and unconsciously going to start assuming the whole package must be awesome. Tesla not only got "infinite" marketing and PR points by claiming "FSD", they even got money from people who are still waiting for that functionality. Those who expected driver assists are happy. Those who expected the claimed FSD are certainly not. Today with competing companies like Volvo announcing L4 cars in 2022, the generic FSD claims are nowhere nearly as valuable as a few years ago.

remontoire 5y ago

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-s/2021/2022-tesla-model-s-plaid-first-test-review/ https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-s/2021/2022-tesl...

yawaworht1978 5y ago
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big-reads/it-mad-bad-840bhp-dodge-demon https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big-reads/it-mad-bad-840bhp...
vardump 5y ago
So Model S Plaid can do 0-60 in 1.98s provided sticky VHT substance on the track. Same stuff used for other drag racers, super- and hypercars to get the required road friction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PJ1_TrackBite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PJ1_TrackBite Without VHT: "Once ready and in its cheetah stance, the Model S Plaid's launch is drama-free, even without the added advantage of VHT. The electric car accelerates from 0 to 60 mph in just 2.07 seconds, more than 0.2 second quicker than our previous record holder." Based on this, what NorwegianDude suggested that it doesn't come even near to that acceleration is just false.
- NorwegianDude 5y ago
  Same article, first thing: "we can confirm the 2.0-second 0-60 barrier remains unbroken. Unless, that is, you write your own rules." "Plaid accelerates from 0-60 mph in 2.28 seconds" So which one is it? Defenitly not 0-60 mph in 1.98. 0.29 seconds off is a huge amount. It's exponentially harder the lower you go, so I'd say that it's not even close.
  - remontoire 5y ago
    Roll-out is standard my dude. So is testing at drag strips. Next you're going to point out that a tesla accelerating on the beach gets to 60mph in 11 seconds and therefore Elon is lying. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a30085446/acceleration-testing-procedure-change-rollout/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a30085446/acceleration... https://www.motortrend.com/news/motor-trend-testing/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/motor-trend-testing/

s5300 5y ago

Uhhh >The car is stated to do 0-60 in 1.99 seconds. Does it do that? No, not even close Can you explain this? If your only rebuttal is "muh 1 foot rollout" I'm pretty sure any reader is going to quickly throw you into the "for some reason, Elon Musk makes this person very butthurt" bin.

yawaworht1978 5y ago
Well, rollout makes a big difference for rwd vehicles. The target here was to present a sub 2 second time. Meanwhile, line it up from a dead stop vs an AWD and you will get this real world result. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/26/porsche-taycan-turbo-s-beats-tesla-model-s-p100d-in-0-100-km-h-0-250-km-h-acceleration-times/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/26/porsche-taycan-turbo-s-... Even few feet rollout makes 0.3 seconds difference. Another thing is the us system 0-60mph, add another 0.2 seconds for the european 0-100kmh. In conclusion, nope a Tesla will not do 0-60 mph from a standstill.
- onethought 5y ago
  But, they don’t say that. So that’s the false advertising claim dead. And it’s .2 seconds, so is 2.2 seconds make all those Tesla buyers idiots? What’s the nearest competitor at?
  - LandR 5y ago
    Does anyone really care about 0-60 times. I've never done a full launch 0-60 in any car. I'm more interested in stuff like 50mph -> 80 mph.
    - llampx 5y ago
      Its a marketing claim and so its important.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

nabla9 5y ago

This is exactly what makes Tesla so weird. It's very unusual to see so much misleading marketing from someone who has technology lead. > And I do of course think Elon knows more, but he chooses to trick people to buy Tesla. Tesla has extremely weak board of directors. Innovator like Musk needs a board that provides constructive counterbalance. It seems that the board is just for the ride and they don't contribute anything. Tesla executives say in official documents that Tesla Autopilot is just level 2. The sales and marketing hints, suggests, and gives an impression of something much better. Tesla must have lawyers that understand that being smartass and just avoiding being explicit does not give legal protection if there is consumer class action. The court will look at all the evidence and try to figure out what was the intended message.

kamray23 5y ago
But what has Musk innovated in Tesla? All Musk has done personally is talk big and then walk back on that once the engineers who actually need to do the innovation can't reach his pipe dreams. In my opinion it's a company like any other, false advertising and all. Nothing out of the ordinary, it just presents itself as revolutionary. "Revolutionary" tech companies are super common now. Uber is literally just a taxi service which doesn't give employee benefits, Tesla is literally just "what if car battery", a fairly mature technology. Hyperloop is a train, Loop and Lyft are just "public transport but not next to the poors", it's all so stupid. None of these people are innovators in any way, they're just ordinary business owners who know that big promises pull in venture capital. Most of them eventually get acquired by one of the large Silicon Valley corporations and then become a new bit of the market. Rarely they go on for longer than a few years before the jig is up.

hughrr 5y ago

Oh yes. People are still drinking the self driving kool aid. My father paid for self driving option in UK on a model S. three years ago. For three years it’s “any day now” he tells me regularly. I’m not sure what he’s doing now but he was muttering something about having to pay for a hardware upgrade which will bring it closer. He’s either going to drop dead or we will develop cold fusion reactors first.

mattashii 5y ago
> or we will develop cold fusion reactors first. Both "fusor" and "muon-catalyzed fusion" are 'cold' fusion techniques, and although the energy returns are 'abysmal' and 'bad' respectively, they are both real-life fusion techniques that do not rely on the conventional high-temperature high-pressure reactors.

rvz 5y ago

Exactly. The fanatics are still in denial and continue to defend Tesla's FSD lies. Was supposed to be due last year and it is still admittedly 'Level 2'. They should at least called Tesla out for repeatedly misleading their customers (again), but won't because they are too busy worshipping Musk. If it was anyone else, they would be immediately destroyed (or sued to hell). > And I do of course think Elon knows more, but he chooses to trick people to buy Tesla. They are sure clever at this marketing scam and they know it. Now they moved on to manipulate the cryptocurrency market.

koonsolo 5y ago

I agree that they over-promise, etc. On the other hand, if it's a scam, Tesla owners should feel scammed. But as far as I can tell, Tesla owners are absolutely loving the car, even with the many small defects. Still seems that even though the car doesn't reach the marketing message, it still is one of the best on the market.

xvector 5y ago
As a Tesla owner I've grown pretty bitter with the car after 2 years. For $40k my auto wipers don't even work, Spotify playback is buggy, and I'm stuck with Tesla's shitty navigation instead of a sane alternative like Waze. I don't even have waypoints for planning trips, which are especially important for electric cars. In his hubris, Elon has outright rejected CarPlay - while doing absolutely nothing to improve the built in software. Tesla's stated range on the website is basically a complete lie. I can only safely budget ~160 miles, even though my SR+ was sold advertising ~240 miles. The interior quality is pretty terrible for the price and I have to pay Tesla to enable rear seat heating which my $40k car already has installed. I think Tesla will lose a not-insignificant amount of current owners when it's time to upgrade. A lot of us are sick of Tesla spending finances on adding worthless videogames when there are still serious shortcomings with the software. I am personally waiting for prices on the Audi e-tron GT to come down a bit, or for Porsche to release an electrified 718. The only issue is charging infrastructure, which Tesla absolutely dominates.
- kamray23 5y ago
  I mean I've heard the infotainment system on Teslas is closer to a cheap Android tablet glued to a car than a computer, kinda like a lot of smart TVs are. True or no? I've heard it has some performance issues.
  - xvector 5y ago
    The infotainment is the most responsive car industry - zero lag or stuttering, basically like an iPad. Unfortunately it is held back by buggy software and missing features. This could be remedied by Tesla allowing CarPlay or Android Auto, but Elon has said that won't be happening.

johanneskanybal 5y ago

Oh how the mighty have fallen. Everything Elon these days makes me puke.

tqkxzugoaupvwqr 5y ago

I watched a video of a German Tesla driver trying the auto pilot in a German city. If he hadn’t intervened it would’ve crashed into stationary cars parked on the side of the road, and on the second occasion it went straight ahead into a roundabout without slowing down at all. It’s insane how this is just treated as “Well, it’s a preview”. People are having almost-crashes because they rely on it in false belief that it is ready (because it’s always “close to public release”).