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> You’re in the arena. You’re building. You will, at one point in the near future, be miraculously happy and successful It was a little weird reading this beca

> You’re in the arena. You’re building. You will, at one point in the near future, be miraculously happy and successful It was a little weird reading this because I became suicidal after I became successful and had a big bank account, beautiful wife and status home. I'm still trying to understand it, but basically I was so focused on success that I forgot to have a life outside of work. Then when the work was done, I didn't have a life. When I looked around I saw that my kids were grown and I was never going to get that time back. Be careful what you wish for is all I can say.

brag 5y ago
Can you expand on your experience? any particular lessons you learned? Seems like you had all the conventional marks of success, I find it hard to believe that that was all for naught.
- brudgers 5y ago
  Maybe it was whose definition of “success” the person was pursuing…conventional definitions are conventional because people accept them without deep reflection on whether they are right for them. They are easier to adopt than to question. Or a problem with winning the rat race is you have to be a rat. Unhappiness is worse than for naught.
  - okareaman 5y ago
    If you've seen Breaking Bad (if not, I'm not spoiling much) there is a scene where he tells his wife "I did it all for the family" and she disgustingly turns her head away and says something like "You did it for your own ego. You didn't care about us." It's kind of like that.
    - brudgers 5y ago
      I apologize for mischaracterizing your experience. I am sorry. I hope you are healing.
- okareaman 5y ago
  It wasn't all for naught, but success is not going to completely fill the hole inside. Lesson? It's simple, don't work all the time and neglect your family. I cringe everytime I hear Musk talking about working 100 hours a week. He has kids by previous marriages afaik, but it sounds to me like he's not much more than a sperm donor. He's a terrible role model for fathers. I worked probably 70 to 80 hours a week for 9 years. My son has a lot of complaints about me not being there and he's right. The only thing I can say to him is that I'm here now.
  - brudgers 5y ago
    I'm confident you will be there for him in the future too.
  - robocat 5y ago
    It sounds a bit like you personally reached high status, then discovered that status is hollow. Was that a big part of it? Do you think you would have been as disappointed if you had ignored your goals and settled for a more “normal” life?
    - elevenoh 5y ago
      >personally reached high status when 'high status' is the benchmark, there's going to be an element of let-down & disgust with one's self on arriving. i'm seeing less and less smart people think in terms of status.
  - dluan 5y ago
    I've found lots of founders either become 1) big time family people, or 2) small grocery store operators, or 3) heavily radicalized leftists.
    - ZephyrBlu 5y ago
      One of these is not like the others.
Guid_NewGuid 5y ago
I've not had any kind of big success or built a business but I think I can relate to this being perhaps "successful enough" relative to people I know / my own expectations. I think you can pour so much of your energy and focus into this vision of the goal you need to complete to feel fulfilment/happiness that it blocks out the depression, you're too busy to feel down and it will fuck up your plans and your goal to give into it, that's for other, less successful people (not my view, just what one tells oneself). Then you get to that goal or aim and realise it doesn't make you feel the way you told yourself it would at all, maybe you feel a moment of satisfaction but it's probably very brief. Then you realise the beast of financial insecurity and social failure has stopped chasing you and that drive to override your mental state disipates, then you're alone with the underlying problem, the lack of any meaning to it all. Sorry if that's not the way you experienced it but I thought I'd bounce the idea around. I hope you find a way to work to some peace with it.
- okareaman 5y ago
  People with money seem so happy. I had a lot of cognitive dissonance when money didn't make me happy. The lifestyle I obtained felt like a gilded cage with no way out. The wife certainly wasn't buying my unhappiness and wouldn't consider that we should go back to what we were. If you didn't grow up with money, then I strongly recommend people get themselves a wealth counselor. I'm not even sure they exist, but didn't find anyone who could discuss with me my feelings about money and what it meant for my identity.
  - awillen 5y ago
    I don't know about a wealth counselor, but get a therapist. So many people, especially founders, would benefit from talking to a professional. Honestly, I'm surprised that there aren't a few therapists who work exclusively with founders - I'd honestly love to see a VC firm with a therapist on staff for its founders.
    - e1g 5y ago
      It’s becoming increasingly popular, at least in NYC, for VCs to promote their mental healthcare perks. Some have coaches, some even have psychologists as GPs. We are making progress.
someelephant 5y ago
My cursory view of your personality is that you would feel the same misery if you had spent all your time with your kids and none of your time chasing your dream to build a company. Many people find peace with meditation, therapy, exposure to nature, exercise, limiting caffeine / alcohol, natural medicines etc.
- sol_invictus 5y ago
  I wager you don’t have kids yourself. Anyway, missing your kids growing up is a forever lost opportunity. Starting a company is not. Very much not comparable
  - topicseed 5y ago
    True but some people just don't chase sharing moments with kids that much. Whilst most people seem to want kids, not all of them want to spend all their time with them at the expense of their own personal dreams. We're perhaps still under the influence of some older generations' way of living...
  - someelephant 5y ago
    I don't disagree. My point is many people think if they'd done this or that they'd be happier. I completely disagree with this premise.
- okareaman 5y ago
  I would have had the same hole inside, but I have found since that the love of my children goes a long way towards helping that. I am saying that I denied myself this for 9 years because I was busy, and I denied them a father who was present and paying attention. With a lot of work, together we have figured it out. The funny thing is they grew up with a lot of money and now there is none, but neither one of them has said a single word about the money being gone. They are happy I am back.
  - someelephant 5y ago
    Glad you are in a good place now. Try not to be so hard on yourself.
Crazyontap 5y ago
Man this comment is scary af for me. I mean I don't know you from adam but getting to the success at the end of the rainbow is what makes me jump out of bed each morning and not want to go to bed each night. It's my dream that consumes me and keeps me happy more than anything else. But I too sometimes feel that "what happens after it's done" and it is not everything I imagine it to be. What if the bag of dreams we're all chasing is just empty like this Alan watts video(1). Call it denial but I just try not to think about it a lot as I don't know what the future holds and it's pointless to speculate right now as every person is different. But reading your comment did scare me a little tbh! (1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4
- ZephyrBlu 5y ago
  Founder depression is extremely common: https://blog.asmartbear.com/startup-identity-selling-sadness.html https://blog.asmartbear.com/startup-identity-selling-sadness... If success is the only thing that drives you it's inevitable that you'll be depressed when you become successful because you've just lost the one thing that keeps you going.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
RHSman2 5y ago
‘I think everybody should get rich and famous and do everything they ever dreamed of so they can see that it's not the answer.’ Jim Carrey
- okareaman 5y ago
  I really resonated with this when I first heard it. Like Carrey, I've also found happiness in meditation and some aspects of Eastern philosophy
dsign 5y ago
There is always another adventure beyond the horizon, as they say. I just wish there was more time.
elevenoh 5y ago
I've seen this only among founders who's product/business didn't reflect their authentic, deepest values.

brag 5y ago

Can you expand on your experience? any particular lessons you learned? Seems like you had all the conventional marks of success, I find it hard to believe that that was all for naught.

brudgers 5y ago
Maybe it was whose definition of “success” the person was pursuing…conventional definitions are conventional because people accept them without deep reflection on whether they are right for them. They are easier to adopt than to question. Or a problem with winning the rat race is you have to be a rat. Unhappiness is worse than for naught.
- okareaman 5y ago
  If you've seen Breaking Bad (if not, I'm not spoiling much) there is a scene where he tells his wife "I did it all for the family" and she disgustingly turns her head away and says something like "You did it for your own ego. You didn't care about us." It's kind of like that.
  - brudgers 5y ago
    I apologize for mischaracterizing your experience. I am sorry. I hope you are healing.
okareaman 5y ago
It wasn't all for naught, but success is not going to completely fill the hole inside. Lesson? It's simple, don't work all the time and neglect your family. I cringe everytime I hear Musk talking about working 100 hours a week. He has kids by previous marriages afaik, but it sounds to me like he's not much more than a sperm donor. He's a terrible role model for fathers. I worked probably 70 to 80 hours a week for 9 years. My son has a lot of complaints about me not being there and he's right. The only thing I can say to him is that I'm here now.
- brudgers 5y ago
  I'm confident you will be there for him in the future too.
- robocat 5y ago
  It sounds a bit like you personally reached high status, then discovered that status is hollow. Was that a big part of it? Do you think you would have been as disappointed if you had ignored your goals and settled for a more “normal” life?
  - elevenoh 5y ago
    >personally reached high status when 'high status' is the benchmark, there's going to be an element of let-down & disgust with one's self on arriving. i'm seeing less and less smart people think in terms of status.
- dluan 5y ago
  I've found lots of founders either become 1) big time family people, or 2) small grocery store operators, or 3) heavily radicalized leftists.
  - ZephyrBlu 5y ago
    One of these is not like the others.

Guid_NewGuid 5y ago

I've not had any kind of big success or built a business but I think I can relate to this being perhaps "successful enough" relative to people I know / my own expectations. I think you can pour so much of your energy and focus into this vision of the goal you need to complete to feel fulfilment/happiness that it blocks out the depression, you're too busy to feel down and it will fuck up your plans and your goal to give into it, that's for other, less successful people (not my view, just what one tells oneself). Then you get to that goal or aim and realise it doesn't make you feel the way you told yourself it would at all, maybe you feel a moment of satisfaction but it's probably very brief. Then you realise the beast of financial insecurity and social failure has stopped chasing you and that drive to override your mental state disipates, then you're alone with the underlying problem, the lack of any meaning to it all. Sorry if that's not the way you experienced it but I thought I'd bounce the idea around. I hope you find a way to work to some peace with it.

okareaman 5y ago
People with money seem so happy. I had a lot of cognitive dissonance when money didn't make me happy. The lifestyle I obtained felt like a gilded cage with no way out. The wife certainly wasn't buying my unhappiness and wouldn't consider that we should go back to what we were. If you didn't grow up with money, then I strongly recommend people get themselves a wealth counselor. I'm not even sure they exist, but didn't find anyone who could discuss with me my feelings about money and what it meant for my identity.
- awillen 5y ago
  I don't know about a wealth counselor, but get a therapist. So many people, especially founders, would benefit from talking to a professional. Honestly, I'm surprised that there aren't a few therapists who work exclusively with founders - I'd honestly love to see a VC firm with a therapist on staff for its founders.
  - e1g 5y ago
    It’s becoming increasingly popular, at least in NYC, for VCs to promote their mental healthcare perks. Some have coaches, some even have psychologists as GPs. We are making progress.

someelephant 5y ago

My cursory view of your personality is that you would feel the same misery if you had spent all your time with your kids and none of your time chasing your dream to build a company. Many people find peace with meditation, therapy, exposure to nature, exercise, limiting caffeine / alcohol, natural medicines etc.

sol_invictus 5y ago
I wager you don’t have kids yourself. Anyway, missing your kids growing up is a forever lost opportunity. Starting a company is not. Very much not comparable
- topicseed 5y ago
  True but some people just don't chase sharing moments with kids that much. Whilst most people seem to want kids, not all of them want to spend all their time with them at the expense of their own personal dreams. We're perhaps still under the influence of some older generations' way of living...
- someelephant 5y ago
  I don't disagree. My point is many people think if they'd done this or that they'd be happier. I completely disagree with this premise.
okareaman 5y ago
I would have had the same hole inside, but I have found since that the love of my children goes a long way towards helping that. I am saying that I denied myself this for 9 years because I was busy, and I denied them a father who was present and paying attention. With a lot of work, together we have figured it out. The funny thing is they grew up with a lot of money and now there is none, but neither one of them has said a single word about the money being gone. They are happy I am back.
- someelephant 5y ago
  Glad you are in a good place now. Try not to be so hard on yourself.

Crazyontap 5y ago

Man this comment is scary af for me. I mean I don't know you from adam but getting to the success at the end of the rainbow is what makes me jump out of bed each morning and not want to go to bed each night. It's my dream that consumes me and keeps me happy more than anything else. But I too sometimes feel that "what happens after it's done" and it is not everything I imagine it to be. What if the bag of dreams we're all chasing is just empty like this Alan watts video(1). Call it denial but I just try not to think about it a lot as I don't know what the future holds and it's pointless to speculate right now as every person is different. But reading your comment did scare me a little tbh! (1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4

ZephyrBlu 5y ago
Founder depression is extremely common: https://blog.asmartbear.com/startup-identity-selling-sadness.html https://blog.asmartbear.com/startup-identity-selling-sadness... If success is the only thing that drives you it's inevitable that you'll be depressed when you become successful because you've just lost the one thing that keeps you going.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

RHSman2 5y ago

‘I think everybody should get rich and famous and do everything they ever dreamed of so they can see that it's not the answer.’ Jim Carrey

okareaman 5y ago
I really resonated with this when I first heard it. Like Carrey, I've also found happiness in meditation and some aspects of Eastern philosophy

dsign 5y ago

There is always another adventure beyond the horizon, as they say. I just wish there was more time.

elevenoh 5y ago

I've seen this only among founders who's product/business didn't reflect their authentic, deepest values.