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Let's maybe not equate corporate sponsorship of sports with the literal Holocaust.

by slg 5y ago

cratermoon 5y ago
OK, but what if the sponsor was IBM?
- slg 5y ago
  Responding to that comment with a joke is a pretty callous move.
  - slipframe 5y ago
    I don't think that was a joke. The banality of evil is about how evil actions may have mundane motivations, particularly professional promotion and profit, rather than ideological motivations. IBM's contribution to the holocaust exemplifies this. Presumably you object to observations about human behavior made in the context of the Holocaust being applied to any circumstance less severe than the Holocaust. I don't think that makes much sense. Attributing Coco Cola's promotion of poisonous beverages to the banality of evil is not equivocating the harm of Coca Cola to the harm of the Holocaust. If such an equivocation were made, that would of course be objectionable.
    - slg 5y ago
      The "evil" referred to in Arendt's original usage is being one of the architects of The Holocaust. The "evil" being described here is trying to sell a few extra units of sugar water. The analogy would be no more appropriate if the "evil" was trying to sell a few extra servers regardless of what IBM did in the 1930s and 1940s. It is not that simply selling soda is "less severe than the Holocaust", it is that it isn't even in the same realm. The analogy is drawing comparisons between one of the banalities of living in a capitalistic society with one of the worst atrocities that humans have ever committed. At a certain point it isn't even about offending anyone. An analogy that strained is just straight up a bad analogy.
      - slipframe 5y ago
        The banality of evil is not limited to extreme evil. Nevertheless, Coca Cola's product certainly has a body count. Refined sugar is poisonous in the first place, certainly in the quantities Coca Cola sells it in, and Coca Cola also adds caffeine to make their product even more addictive. And why does Coca Cola want to associate their product with athleticism so badly? Because their product has developed a well earned reputation for being unhealthy, and they want to whitewash that reputation. They want to use athletes particularly because athletes are often role models for people in the domains of fitness and nutrition. There is evil to be found in Coca Cola's business model, and therefore, it is appropriate to invoke the banality of evil to explain it.
      - solnyshok 5y ago
        when you count people dying from overweight related problems, selling sugary water stops looking innocent
  - cratermoon 5y ago
    It was not a joke. Evil doesn't look like Sauron or HYDRA. Evil looks more like William Barr. Arendt's insight was that evil is bland, sometimes barely competent, bureaucracy and uncritical dedication to the system for selfish ambition. The comment I was responding to said, "real evil is extraordinarily mundane", which is exactly what Arendt noted. Whether or not the actions of UEFA and Coca-Cola are morally equal to IBM's role in the Holocaust is a different question, but the attitude of subservience to order is certainly comparable.
    - slg 5y ago
      Sorry for assuming it is a joke, but the IBM of today is so disconnected from the IBM of 80 years ago that I didn't think you could be seriously suggesting that the modern company advertising is some how an immoral act. >Whether or not the actions of UEFA and Coca-Cola are morally equal to IBM's role in the Holocaust is a different question But that wasn't why I objected. You are not just comparing EUFA, Coke, and IBM, you are comparing those to one of the architects of the Holocaust. Maybe that isn't your intent, but it is what you are doing by directly referencing Arendt. I probably wouldn't have even said anything if you didn't call specific attention to the fact that you knew the origin of the phrase and still went forward with an analogy that working for Coke is like working for the Nazis.
      - cratermoon 5y ago
        Side note: look up the relationship between Fanta and the Coca-Cola company.

Let's maybe not equate corporate sponsorship of sports with the literal Holocaust.

by slg 5y ago

Let's maybe not equate corporate sponsorship of sports with the literal Holocaust.

cratermoon 5y ago

OK, but what if the sponsor was IBM?

slg 5y ago
Responding to that comment with a joke is a pretty callous move.
- slipframe 5y ago
  I don't think that was a joke. The banality of evil is about how evil actions may have mundane motivations, particularly professional promotion and profit, rather than ideological motivations. IBM's contribution to the holocaust exemplifies this. Presumably you object to observations about human behavior made in the context of the Holocaust being applied to any circumstance less severe than the Holocaust. I don't think that makes much sense. Attributing Coco Cola's promotion of poisonous beverages to the banality of evil is not equivocating the harm of Coca Cola to the harm of the Holocaust. If such an equivocation were made, that would of course be objectionable.
  - slg 5y ago
    The "evil" referred to in Arendt's original usage is being one of the architects of The Holocaust. The "evil" being described here is trying to sell a few extra units of sugar water. The analogy would be no more appropriate if the "evil" was trying to sell a few extra servers regardless of what IBM did in the 1930s and 1940s. It is not that simply selling soda is "less severe than the Holocaust", it is that it isn't even in the same realm. The analogy is drawing comparisons between one of the banalities of living in a capitalistic society with one of the worst atrocities that humans have ever committed. At a certain point it isn't even about offending anyone. An analogy that strained is just straight up a bad analogy.
    - slipframe 5y ago
      The banality of evil is not limited to extreme evil. Nevertheless, Coca Cola's product certainly has a body count. Refined sugar is poisonous in the first place, certainly in the quantities Coca Cola sells it in, and Coca Cola also adds caffeine to make their product even more addictive. And why does Coca Cola want to associate their product with athleticism so badly? Because their product has developed a well earned reputation for being unhealthy, and they want to whitewash that reputation. They want to use athletes particularly because athletes are often role models for people in the domains of fitness and nutrition. There is evil to be found in Coca Cola's business model, and therefore, it is appropriate to invoke the banality of evil to explain it.
    - solnyshok 5y ago
      when you count people dying from overweight related problems, selling sugary water stops looking innocent
- cratermoon 5y ago
  It was not a joke. Evil doesn't look like Sauron or HYDRA. Evil looks more like William Barr. Arendt's insight was that evil is bland, sometimes barely competent, bureaucracy and uncritical dedication to the system for selfish ambition. The comment I was responding to said, "real evil is extraordinarily mundane", which is exactly what Arendt noted. Whether or not the actions of UEFA and Coca-Cola are morally equal to IBM's role in the Holocaust is a different question, but the attitude of subservience to order is certainly comparable.
  - slg 5y ago
    Sorry for assuming it is a joke, but the IBM of today is so disconnected from the IBM of 80 years ago that I didn't think you could be seriously suggesting that the modern company advertising is some how an immoral act. >Whether or not the actions of UEFA and Coca-Cola are morally equal to IBM's role in the Holocaust is a different question But that wasn't why I objected. You are not just comparing EUFA, Coke, and IBM, you are comparing those to one of the architects of the Holocaust. Maybe that isn't your intent, but it is what you are doing by directly referencing Arendt. I probably wouldn't have even said anything if you didn't call specific attention to the fact that you knew the origin of the phrase and still went forward with an analogy that working for Coke is like working for the Nazis.
    - cratermoon 5y ago
      Side note: look up the relationship between Fanta and the Coca-Cola company.