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The only one who can judge the worthiness of this apology is Matthew Butterick himself. As for me, this sounds like the first steps of the self realization proc

The only one who can judge the worthiness of this apology is Matthew Butterick himself. As for me, this sounds like the first steps of the self realization process Matthias should go through in an effort to better himself. Let's not judge it to harshly. Rather let's encourage him to keep on walking down that path of self improvement that we all should be on.

boredtofears 5y ago
> first steps of the self realization process Every time I see a well written apology letter, I cringe at all the self-actualization rhetoric people respond to it with. As if they must do more and become some kind of Buddhist monk before true retribution is to be awarded to them.
- throwaway9980 5y ago
  Yes, I agree that we can all do better, be better, strive for good things for all, etc, but this language borders on religious. And it’s everywhere these days. It’s as if not always living up to a set of ideals is the modern original sin that requires constant atonement.
  - itronitron 5y ago
    Many people have been conditioned to believe that people in positions of power are virtuous, and that they reached that position by doing good things well. It's not that everyone expects people in power to live a set of ideals, it's that they have been marketed as such.
- vanderZwan 5y ago
  The apology is in response to being called out on one example in decades of behavior so toxic that a significant number of people have left academia, an otherwise amazing open source project and who knows what else, as a result of it. This has been confirmed by many people at this point. An apology in that context is a starting point, a request to open a door that has been shut by the abuser themselves. An apology doesn't actually fix anything regarding the toxic behavior, and not getting the benefit of doubt that ths behavior, again, with a track record of decades, is suddenly over is not just completely justified, it would be naive to do otherwise. And to think that this kind of hesitance at trusting someone who has so systemically violated it for. decades. has anything to do with "awarding retribution" or "becoming like a Buddhist monk" is incredibly tone deaf.
  - boredtofears 5y ago
    Okay. So what is the “path” you’d prescribe this individual? That’s the part that never seems to get defined and seems to be something the accused must infinitely chase. At what point should spectators be allowed to treat this individual like a human again?
koheripbal 5y ago
Apologies should be private. Public apologies are their own form of unhealthy societal bullying.
- sjansen 5y ago
  Dunno, if you're called out publicly I see no problem with replying publicly. I mean what's the alternative, silence? For all we know, there may have been additional private communication and if there was I'm pretty sure it's none of our business.
- haswell 5y ago
  Matthew called him out publicly. Given that, I can’t really judge the decision to make the apology public. Ideally, all of this should probably be private, but public discourse about internal things seems increasingly the norm. I’m not a fan. Edit: after reading Matthew’s updates to his original post [0], I fully understand why the apology is public. Matthias responded to the original post privately via email, and Matthew chose to publicly publish key excerpts and a general characterization of what Matthias wrote privately. He then “gave permission” to Matthias to publish any corrections. I’m not a fan of Matthew’s general approach here (even while acknowledging that of course bullying/abuse is unacceptable). - [0] https://beautifulracket.com/appendix/why-i-no-longer-contribute-to-racket.html#felleisens-first-response-16-june-2021 https://beautifulracket.com/appendix/why-i-no-longer-contrib...
  - dTal 5y ago
    What should he have done? Kept quiet? Attempted (and likely failed) to obtain a meaningless private apology, for multiple instances of public belittlement - while the bully carries on bullying? No. As he says in his post - "It’s apparent that Felleisen has avoided accountability for a long time. I’m far from his only target. I’ve seen him verbally abuse and heckle others. I’ve heard other accounts privately. But I’m only part of the cover-up if I choose to be. So from now on—I’m not." And further on he directly responds to your objection: "In general, I have a strong aversion to sharing any kind of personal or confessional anecdotes on the internet. I’ve made an exception in this case because the concealment is worse."
Guidii 5y ago
For insight into the larger context here (all the conversations and interactions, along with Matthew's interpretation) see https://beautifulracket.com/appendix/why-i-no-longer-contribute-to-racket.html https://beautifulracket.com/appendix/why-i-no-longer-contrib...

boredtofears 5y ago

> first steps of the self realization process Every time I see a well written apology letter, I cringe at all the self-actualization rhetoric people respond to it with. As if they must do more and become some kind of Buddhist monk before true retribution is to be awarded to them.

throwaway9980 5y ago
Yes, I agree that we can all do better, be better, strive for good things for all, etc, but this language borders on religious. And it’s everywhere these days. It’s as if not always living up to a set of ideals is the modern original sin that requires constant atonement.
- itronitron 5y ago
  Many people have been conditioned to believe that people in positions of power are virtuous, and that they reached that position by doing good things well. It's not that everyone expects people in power to live a set of ideals, it's that they have been marketed as such.
vanderZwan 5y ago
The apology is in response to being called out on one example in decades of behavior so toxic that a significant number of people have left academia, an otherwise amazing open source project and who knows what else, as a result of it. This has been confirmed by many people at this point. An apology in that context is a starting point, a request to open a door that has been shut by the abuser themselves. An apology doesn't actually fix anything regarding the toxic behavior, and not getting the benefit of doubt that ths behavior, again, with a track record of decades, is suddenly over is not just completely justified, it would be naive to do otherwise. And to think that this kind of hesitance at trusting someone who has so systemically violated it for. decades. has anything to do with "awarding retribution" or "becoming like a Buddhist monk" is incredibly tone deaf.
- boredtofears 5y ago
  Okay. So what is the “path” you’d prescribe this individual? That’s the part that never seems to get defined and seems to be something the accused must infinitely chase. At what point should spectators be allowed to treat this individual like a human again?

koheripbal 5y ago

Apologies should be private. Public apologies are their own form of unhealthy societal bullying.

sjansen 5y ago
Dunno, if you're called out publicly I see no problem with replying publicly. I mean what's the alternative, silence? For all we know, there may have been additional private communication and if there was I'm pretty sure it's none of our business.
haswell 5y ago
Matthew called him out publicly. Given that, I can’t really judge the decision to make the apology public. Ideally, all of this should probably be private, but public discourse about internal things seems increasingly the norm. I’m not a fan. Edit: after reading Matthew’s updates to his original post [0], I fully understand why the apology is public. Matthias responded to the original post privately via email, and Matthew chose to publicly publish key excerpts and a general characterization of what Matthias wrote privately. He then “gave permission” to Matthias to publish any corrections. I’m not a fan of Matthew’s general approach here (even while acknowledging that of course bullying/abuse is unacceptable). - [0] https://beautifulracket.com/appendix/why-i-no-longer-contribute-to-racket.html#felleisens-first-response-16-june-2021 https://beautifulracket.com/appendix/why-i-no-longer-contrib...
- dTal 5y ago
  What should he have done? Kept quiet? Attempted (and likely failed) to obtain a meaningless private apology, for multiple instances of public belittlement - while the bully carries on bullying? No. As he says in his post - "It’s apparent that Felleisen has avoided accountability for a long time. I’m far from his only target. I’ve seen him verbally abuse and heckle others. I’ve heard other accounts privately. But I’m only part of the cover-up if I choose to be. So from now on—I’m not." And further on he directly responds to your objection: "In general, I have a strong aversion to sharing any kind of personal or confessional anecdotes on the internet. I’ve made an exception in this case because the concealment is worse."

Guidii 5y ago

For insight into the larger context here (all the conversations and interactions, along with Matthew's interpretation) see https://beautifulracket.com/appendix/why-i-no-longer-contribute-to-racket.html https://beautifulracket.com/appendix/why-i-no-longer-contrib...