8 ms·

Context: Why I no longer contribute to Racket. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27531508 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27531508

LAC-Tech 5y ago
I really think people need to learn to push back, and talk plainly. This could have easily been a blog called "that time Felleisen was being a cunt and I told him to go fuck himself" and been 1/4 the length.
- piercebot 5y ago
  I'm not sure I would classify that as "talking plainly." Words like that would put anybody on the defensive, and being on the defensive does not make people receptive to positive change.
- qbasic_forever 5y ago
  There are very real cultural differences and taboos against questioning and pushing back against authority. What one culture may view as normal and expected process in improvement, another is horrified and ashamed to consider. Do not assume just because you've grown up or grown accustomed to it that it's 'normal' or practiced everywhere. This is perhaps one of the biggest frictions I see in teams that are full of folks from different cultures and backgrounds.
  - neolog 5y ago
    Where do people stay silent for so long? [Edit: rephrased]
    - williamsmj 5y ago
      Hierarchies. The answer to your question is: hierarchies.
      - neolog 5y ago
        This is a good answer, thanks.
        gautamcgoel 5y ago
        /s
    - qbasic_forever 5y ago
      Did you read the original blog post? They clearly mention at the end they posted it because they were repeatedly asked why they disengaged from the Racket community: "Why mention any of this now? Two reasons. Over the last year, friends in the Racket community have asked me why I’ve reduced my involvement. Absent anything else, they assume the most obvious reason: that I’m bored or frustrated with Racket as a language. That I’ve moved on to other things. Not true. On the contrary, it seems important to reassert: I like almost everything about Racket. It’s still my favorite programming environment. I use it almost every day. I wish I could still contribute the way I did before. But I can’t subject myself to more of the same. In that sense, it feels more like exile than withdrawal. I’ve been involved with FOSS projects for nearly 25 years. A project that depends on free contributions of time & effort—as every FOSS project does—needs to be an appealing place for others to make gifts of their time. Sure, in any community of opinionated humans, occasional frictions and disagreements are natural. But Felleisen’s outrageous hostility went far beyond anything I’d experienced." Also this main issue occurred three years ago. It is very odd to assume that someone decided to just sit on an issue for three years and then suddenly gotcha throw it out of nowhere. This person was bullied out of the Racket community. They quietly left rather than try to fight against aggressive personalities. That's the real story here, and what happens in 99% of similar incidents.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    > There are very real cultural differences and taboos against questioning and pushing back against authority. Hence why so many cases of "Yes, I understand. We'll do the needful." that don't go as planned...
  - onetom 5y ago
    That's my experience too. I'm Hungarian and worked or collaborated with people from a handful of nations (Japan, Korea, Tamil Nadu (India), Mumbai (India), Ukraine, Russia, Portugal, Poland, Guandong (China), Hong Kong, USA, Brazil, Nepal, Pakistan, Switzerland, France, Austria, UK, Greece, Serbia, Montenegro, South Africa, Australia, Sri Lanka, Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, Netherlands, Canada), in person, just over the past ~13 years. Before that, I was only exposed to Hungarian work culture for the first 30 years of my life, so that was my base-line. Some of the differences in attitude towards work, co-workers and authority truly triggered rage in me. Then someone suggested that the reason for these differences are cultural, hence very deeply rooted and I can't expect to change them quickly or at all. For that reason, I should be the one who adapts, since now I understand the situation and I care to solve the problem. I kinda agree with this assessment, but if I can put this effort in to even out cultural differences, so as the other party can, just have to make them aware of this discovery and try converge multiple times, since our goal is to work together. There is a lot more to say, but that's how far I have the time to go now :)
- striking 5y ago
  From the fine reply's fine link: > Of course, I did push back on Felleisen. But there was a limit to how hard I could push. Again—I was merely a guest. In the moment, I was struggling mostly to keep my emotions in check. I did assure him that his fears about my future performance were unfounded.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  Matthew was an invited guest speaker, he could not push back to such an extent without putting those arrangements at risk. This of course made it more important for Fellesein to moderate his behavior in that context; he should have been aware that this meant a potential source of feedback was missing.
- aeturnum 5y ago
  If you expect people to do things they don't feel comfortable doing, you will repeatedly be disappointed. If you are depending on coworkers to go outside their comfort zone, you will lose coworkers (and probably feel they are undependable). Even if you are right and this person is "too sensitive" in some way, they were also an important contributor who has left a project where they no longer felt comfortable. No one owes it to any of us to "put up" with how we treat them. Like, maybe a team that resolves conflict this was would really work more efficiently! But it will certainly push out anyone who isn't comfortable with that kind of interaction, while the efficiency gains seem more uncertain.
  - nyokodo 5y ago
    > No one owes it to any of us to "put up" with how we treat them. No, however we do owe it to ourselves to learn better how to push back on difficult people. It’s a form of self defense because difficult people, or people having a bad day and lashing out, are not going away.
    - LAC-Tech 5y ago
      Exactly. It's kind of like defensive driving. No I shouldn't have to take all these precautions because others should be following the road rules... but very often they don't. If you're in a crash and you're "in the right", you're still in a crash (as my last concussion can attest to...). Likewise if someone is being a prick to you, sometimes you've just gotta be the bigger prick right back. No you shouldn't have to be, people should always be nice and respectful... but they're not. Most people back off, and if they don't - you've learned the valuable lesson that the person is beyond reason and you can wash your hands of it right then and there.
    - JadeNB 5y ago
      > No, however we do owe it to ourselves to learn better how to push back on difficult people. It’s a form of self defense because difficult people, or people having a bad day and lashing out, are not going away. I think this is a key word, though—we owe it to ourselves. We can say "boy, I did a poor job confronting that bully today." But no-one else owes it to us; we are, I think, unjustified in saying, "boy, Matthew did a poor job confronting that bully today", or at least in passing any judgment if that is our belief.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- threatofrain 5y ago
  Matthew Butterick said he pushed back, and that members of the Racket core team simply asked him to move on.
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
    Which he should have obviously rather than creating Internet drama over he said she said BS. The least he could have done was provide actual evidence.
- rodgerd 5y ago
  I think people should learn to stop being fucking arseholes.
- pjc50 5y ago
  > that time Felleisen was being a cunt and I told him to go fuck himself .. leading to getting banned from this conference and possibly the wider community?
chronogram 5y ago
So both just needed to talk to each other? No idea why they have to go through HN proxies.
- mvid 5y ago
  Matthew made it pretty clear he had talked to a number of people, and waited months before going public
  - bobthechef 5y ago
    But did he speak with Matthias directly first? There is an adult way to escalate problems which is to first speak privately with the person in question to address the problem or correct the misunderstanding. If that fails, you could speak with people in the relevant social circle shared with Matthias. Dragging your problem into the public square is only something you do if those fail AND there are sufficiently good reasons to make it public. Just to be clear: I am not defending or criticizing Matthias one way or another. I am speaking purely about process. This is a process that should be observed equally by those in positions of leadership toward those whom they serve in that role as well as the later toward the former. That is, both Matthias and Matthew.
    - fatbird 5y ago
      This is one way to handle the problem, but certainly not the only way, and not a way that is blessed as "the mature solution". There are a variety of legtimate reasons not try to speak first privately to Matthias. Butterick gets at one of them in his essay, namely that allowing bullies to keep their bullying private has the effect of isolating other victims and preventing more coherent responses to it by a group.
    - JohnHaugeland 5y ago
      Instead of "just asking questions," then using that to make commentary that doesn't make sense because you don't know what's happening, try becoming familiar with the situation
    - 5y ago
threatofrain 5y ago
Discussion on Lobsters. https://lobste.rs/s/6rnyn9/why_i_no_longer_contribute_racket https://lobste.rs/s/6rnyn9/why_i_no_longer_contribute_racket
- LAC-Tech 5y ago
  Thanks for this public service announcement to never go on lobsters. Wow.
- wchar_t 5y ago
  Why did you consider it necessary to link there? I'm genuinely curious.
  - chris_wot 5y ago
    It is also linked on the "Why I no longer contribute to Racket".
IncRnd 5y ago
Thank you. That references the blog at https://beautifulracket.com/appendix/why-i-no-longer-contribute-to-racket.html https://beautifulracket.com/appendix/why-i-no-longer-contrib.... At the beginning: "No facts were disputed. The incidents were numerous, happening over a period of years. They were always witnessed by others on the Racket core team. For that reason, there’s no need to enumerate the details now. Though I will give one example as illustration" If there was no need to enumerate details, why did he write an additional 12 pages in a blog post? This whole incident, whatever it was or is, seems like two personalities with egos that won't stop. That's not something I care about.
nerdponx 5y ago
Wild. Where were the other people in the room? This sounds like shared (ir)responsibility beyond the individual with the bad attitude.
- ljm 5y ago
  This was my take on it. It could be that literally everyone on the leadership team was terrified into conformity, but I find that hard to believe, and that instead it was more of an inner-sanctum that held some admiration for the leader who let them in.
itronitron 5y ago
Seems like an appropriate time to fork the project.

LAC-Tech 5y ago

I really think people need to learn to push back, and talk plainly. This could have easily been a blog called "that time Felleisen was being a cunt and I told him to go fuck himself" and been 1/4 the length.

piercebot 5y ago
I'm not sure I would classify that as "talking plainly." Words like that would put anybody on the defensive, and being on the defensive does not make people receptive to positive change.
qbasic_forever 5y ago
There are very real cultural differences and taboos against questioning and pushing back against authority. What one culture may view as normal and expected process in improvement, another is horrified and ashamed to consider. Do not assume just because you've grown up or grown accustomed to it that it's 'normal' or practiced everywhere. This is perhaps one of the biggest frictions I see in teams that are full of folks from different cultures and backgrounds.
- neolog 5y ago
  Where do people stay silent for so long? [Edit: rephrased]
  - williamsmj 5y ago
    Hierarchies. The answer to your question is: hierarchies.
    - neolog 5y ago
      This is a good answer, thanks.
      - gautamcgoel 5y ago
        /s
  - qbasic_forever 5y ago
    Did you read the original blog post? They clearly mention at the end they posted it because they were repeatedly asked why they disengaged from the Racket community: "Why mention any of this now? Two reasons. Over the last year, friends in the Racket community have asked me why I’ve reduced my involvement. Absent anything else, they assume the most obvious reason: that I’m bored or frustrated with Racket as a language. That I’ve moved on to other things. Not true. On the contrary, it seems important to reassert: I like almost everything about Racket. It’s still my favorite programming environment. I use it almost every day. I wish I could still contribute the way I did before. But I can’t subject myself to more of the same. In that sense, it feels more like exile than withdrawal. I’ve been involved with FOSS projects for nearly 25 years. A project that depends on free contributions of time & effort—as every FOSS project does—needs to be an appealing place for others to make gifts of their time. Sure, in any community of opinionated humans, occasional frictions and disagreements are natural. But Felleisen’s outrageous hostility went far beyond anything I’d experienced." Also this main issue occurred three years ago. It is very odd to assume that someone decided to just sit on an issue for three years and then suddenly gotcha throw it out of nowhere. This person was bullied out of the Racket community. They quietly left rather than try to fight against aggressive personalities. That's the real story here, and what happens in 99% of similar incidents.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  > There are very real cultural differences and taboos against questioning and pushing back against authority. Hence why so many cases of "Yes, I understand. We'll do the needful." that don't go as planned...
- onetom 5y ago
  That's my experience too. I'm Hungarian and worked or collaborated with people from a handful of nations (Japan, Korea, Tamil Nadu (India), Mumbai (India), Ukraine, Russia, Portugal, Poland, Guandong (China), Hong Kong, USA, Brazil, Nepal, Pakistan, Switzerland, France, Austria, UK, Greece, Serbia, Montenegro, South Africa, Australia, Sri Lanka, Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, Netherlands, Canada), in person, just over the past ~13 years. Before that, I was only exposed to Hungarian work culture for the first 30 years of my life, so that was my base-line. Some of the differences in attitude towards work, co-workers and authority truly triggered rage in me. Then someone suggested that the reason for these differences are cultural, hence very deeply rooted and I can't expect to change them quickly or at all. For that reason, I should be the one who adapts, since now I understand the situation and I care to solve the problem. I kinda agree with this assessment, but if I can put this effort in to even out cultural differences, so as the other party can, just have to make them aware of this discovery and try converge multiple times, since our goal is to work together. There is a lot more to say, but that's how far I have the time to go now :)
striking 5y ago
From the fine reply's fine link: > Of course, I did push back on Felleisen. But there was a limit to how hard I could push. Again—I was merely a guest. In the moment, I was struggling mostly to keep my emotions in check. I did assure him that his fears about my future performance were unfounded.
zozbot234 5y ago
Matthew was an invited guest speaker, he could not push back to such an extent without putting those arrangements at risk. This of course made it more important for Fellesein to moderate his behavior in that context; he should have been aware that this meant a potential source of feedback was missing.
aeturnum 5y ago
If you expect people to do things they don't feel comfortable doing, you will repeatedly be disappointed. If you are depending on coworkers to go outside their comfort zone, you will lose coworkers (and probably feel they are undependable). Even if you are right and this person is "too sensitive" in some way, they were also an important contributor who has left a project where they no longer felt comfortable. No one owes it to any of us to "put up" with how we treat them. Like, maybe a team that resolves conflict this was would really work more efficiently! But it will certainly push out anyone who isn't comfortable with that kind of interaction, while the efficiency gains seem more uncertain.
- nyokodo 5y ago
  > No one owes it to any of us to "put up" with how we treat them. No, however we do owe it to ourselves to learn better how to push back on difficult people. It’s a form of self defense because difficult people, or people having a bad day and lashing out, are not going away.
  - LAC-Tech 5y ago
    Exactly. It's kind of like defensive driving. No I shouldn't have to take all these precautions because others should be following the road rules... but very often they don't. If you're in a crash and you're "in the right", you're still in a crash (as my last concussion can attest to...). Likewise if someone is being a prick to you, sometimes you've just gotta be the bigger prick right back. No you shouldn't have to be, people should always be nice and respectful... but they're not. Most people back off, and if they don't - you've learned the valuable lesson that the person is beyond reason and you can wash your hands of it right then and there.
  - JadeNB 5y ago
    > No, however we do owe it to ourselves to learn better how to push back on difficult people. It’s a form of self defense because difficult people, or people having a bad day and lashing out, are not going away. I think this is a key word, though—we owe it to ourselves. We can say "boy, I did a poor job confronting that bully today." But no-one else owes it to us; we are, I think, unjustified in saying, "boy, Matthew did a poor job confronting that bully today", or at least in passing any judgment if that is our belief.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
threatofrain 5y ago
Matthew Butterick said he pushed back, and that members of the Racket core team simply asked him to move on.
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  Which he should have obviously rather than creating Internet drama over he said she said BS. The least he could have done was provide actual evidence.
rodgerd 5y ago
I think people should learn to stop being fucking arseholes.
pjc50 5y ago
> that time Felleisen was being a cunt and I told him to go fuck himself .. leading to getting banned from this conference and possibly the wider community?

chronogram 5y ago

So both just needed to talk to each other? No idea why they have to go through HN proxies.

mvid 5y ago
Matthew made it pretty clear he had talked to a number of people, and waited months before going public
- bobthechef 5y ago
  But did he speak with Matthias directly first? There is an adult way to escalate problems which is to first speak privately with the person in question to address the problem or correct the misunderstanding. If that fails, you could speak with people in the relevant social circle shared with Matthias. Dragging your problem into the public square is only something you do if those fail AND there are sufficiently good reasons to make it public. Just to be clear: I am not defending or criticizing Matthias one way or another. I am speaking purely about process. This is a process that should be observed equally by those in positions of leadership toward those whom they serve in that role as well as the later toward the former. That is, both Matthias and Matthew.
  - fatbird 5y ago
    This is one way to handle the problem, but certainly not the only way, and not a way that is blessed as "the mature solution". There are a variety of legtimate reasons not try to speak first privately to Matthias. Butterick gets at one of them in his essay, namely that allowing bullies to keep their bullying private has the effect of isolating other victims and preventing more coherent responses to it by a group.
  - JohnHaugeland 5y ago
    Instead of "just asking questions," then using that to make commentary that doesn't make sense because you don't know what's happening, try becoming familiar with the situation
  - 5y ago

threatofrain 5y ago

Discussion on Lobsters. https://lobste.rs/s/6rnyn9/why_i_no_longer_contribute_racket https://lobste.rs/s/6rnyn9/why_i_no_longer_contribute_racket

LAC-Tech 5y ago
Thanks for this public service announcement to never go on lobsters. Wow.
wchar_t 5y ago
Why did you consider it necessary to link there? I'm genuinely curious.
- chris_wot 5y ago
  It is also linked on the "Why I no longer contribute to Racket".

IncRnd 5y ago

Thank you. That references the blog at https://beautifulracket.com/appendix/why-i-no-longer-contribute-to-racket.html https://beautifulracket.com/appendix/why-i-no-longer-contrib.... At the beginning: "No facts were disputed. The incidents were numerous, happening over a period of years. They were always witnessed by others on the Racket core team. For that reason, there’s no need to enumerate the details now. Though I will give one example as illustration" If there was no need to enumerate details, why did he write an additional 12 pages in a blog post? This whole incident, whatever it was or is, seems like two personalities with egos that won't stop. That's not something I care about.

nerdponx 5y ago

Wild. Where were the other people in the room? This sounds like shared (ir)responsibility beyond the individual with the bad attitude.

ljm 5y ago
This was my take on it. It could be that literally everyone on the leadership team was terrified into conformity, but I find that hard to believe, and that instead it was more of an inner-sanctum that held some admiration for the leader who let them in.

itronitron 5y ago

Seems like an appropriate time to fork the project.